Dave Meltzer stuff

[Dylan Waco]

Best thing about Dave's recent NJPW coverage is that he kinda shit on the 1/5 show I really liked.

[pol]

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

[Jesse Ewiak]

Give me somebody actually excited about a good product, even if that product might not be quite as good as the person saying it is, over somebody being passive aggressive over that same good product, simply because it isn't their style.

[Dylan Waco]

Who is being passive aggressive?

[Brady]

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

[BigBadMick]

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Agreed. He has a few peculiarities and annoying traits, but I've never understood why Mitchell is barely mentioned in PWO.

[soup23]

 

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Agreed. He has a few peculiarities and annoying traits, but I've never understood why Mitchell is barely mentioned in PWO.

 

Mitchell can be great at times, but as someone that was a Torch subscriber from 2008-2013, it really devolved into "we've heard this before too many times" and he came across as a blowhard that refused to move an inch on any past opinion he had formed. Digging back into the archives, you see even more examples of him really taking a minority line and sticking up for important issues. I do like Bruce and think the Torch overall gets dissed on too much from the F4W crowd, but lapsing my Torch sub hasn't given me many regrets.

[BillThompson]

Give me somebody actually excited about a good product, even if that product might not be quite as good as the person saying it is, over somebody being passive aggressive over that same good product, simply because it isn't their style.

 

So we've reached the point where dissenting opinions of NJPW are passive aggressive as opposed to just dissenting opinions?

[cm funk]

 

 

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Agreed. He has a few peculiarities and annoying traits, but I've never understood why Mitchell is barely mentioned in PWO.

 

Mitchell can be great at times, but as someone that was a Torch subscriber from 2008-2013, it really devolved into "we've heard this before too many times" and he came across as a blowhard that refused to move an inch on any past opinion he had formed. Digging back into the archives, you see even more examples of him really taking a minority line and sticking up for important issues. I do like Bruce and think the Torch overall gets dissed on too much from the F4W crowd, but lapsing my Torch sub hasn't given me many regrets.

 

 

yeah, he's a broken record.....

 

Him and Keller do terrible audio shows, IMO, don't understand why anybody would pay for that stuff. Bruce Mitchell comes off like such an annoying douchey know it all nerd, Keller too most of the time. It's nails on chalk to me. I might rag on the peculiarities of Meltzer from time to time, but I love listening to his audio shows

[BigBadMick]

 

 

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Agreed. He has a few peculiarities and annoying traits, but I've never understood why Mitchell is barely mentioned in PWO.

 

Mitchell can be great at times, but as someone that was a Torch subscriber from 2008-2013, it really devolved into "we've heard this before too many times" and he came across as a blowhard that refused to move an inch on any past opinion he had formed. Digging back into the archives, you see even more examples of him really taking a minority line and sticking up for important issues. I do like Bruce and think the Torch overall gets dissed on too much from the F4W crowd, but lapsing my Torch sub hasn't given me many regrets.

 

That's probably fair, actually.

 

And he's a teacher, so he has no problem repeating himself and droning on and on sometimes.

[Petey]

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Wait, everything wasn't better in Crockett??

[cm funk]

 

 

Is there anyone doing analysis that can compare to Dave's? I don't care about his opinions on match quality, but find him to be generally on point with the booking and business side of things.

I actually think Bruce Mitchell is great, if you can get past the "everything was better in Crockett" stuff. He did a podcast with Keller this week that dissected every issue with WWE and TNA programming like a serial killer.

 

Wait, everything wasn't better in Crockett??

 

 

Maybe it was, but it's at the point of ridiculousness. Normal people don't compare everything to their favorite thing. He's the typical know-it-all fanboy nerd that everyone hates.

[cm funk]

Dave boiling down why people don't like Jon Jones is getting really tiresome. He goes back to "I was in New Jersey and someone called him the N word!" Dave, you're better than this. Do you really think Jones' heat is because he's black? He was a super popular fighter on the way up because he was so damn talented, then the more exposure put on him the more everyone realized that he was an unlikeable dick. Boiling it down to race is insultingly ignorant

[hammerva]

My main argument to that is why am I rooting for Daniel Cormier or Anthony Johnson (if they end up fighting) if I hate Jon Jones because I don't like seeing a black man become successfully. I mean if Cormier wins at the PPV am I going to start hating on him because "he made it"

 

Oh and if you haven't listened to the Mauro Rannalo interview here is basically the first 30 minutes when I tapped out

 

"You were so awesome on commentary"

"Thanks but you are so awesome in your work for Observer"

"Thanks but can you believe how awesome new Japan was"

"Yeah it is so awesome"

 

Stop me if I am over-reacting but I couldn't take it

[pol]

Dave boiling down why people don't like Jon Jones is getting really tiresome. He goes back to "I was in New Jersey and someone called him the N word!" Dave, you're better than this. Do you really think Jones' heat is because he's black? He was a super popular fighter on the way up because he was so damn talented, then the more exposure put on him the more everyone realized that he was an unlikeable dick. Boiling it down to race is insultingly ignorant

 

What? He was saying the complete opposite of that if you're talking about the latest radio.

[cm funk]

 

Dave boiling down why people don't like Jon Jones is getting really tiresome. He goes back to "I was in New Jersey and someone called him the N word!" Dave, you're better than this. Do you really think Jones' heat is because he's black? He was a super popular fighter on the way up because he was so damn talented, then the more exposure put on him the more everyone realized that he was an unlikeable dick. Boiling it down to race is insultingly ignorant

 

What? He was saying the complete opposite of that if you're talking about the latest radio.

 

 

No, he mentioned all the valid reasons why people don't like Jones.....but he kept going back to race for some inexplicable reason

[Eduardo]

pol is right. He was saying the complete opposite of that and it was really embarrassing. Reminds me of the time Meltzer got into an argument with Snowden on Twitter about the build-up to Jones-Sonnen.

 

At one point, Meltzer was arguing about "people pulling the race card", about how he's going to get people mad at him for saying that, and how race doesn't factor in because Jones got cheered when he beat Shogun Rua in New Jersey. He also framed the introduction to this topic in a disingenuous way. Meltzer came off looking pretty bad.

 

EDIT: Just to clear up, in case there is any confusion, I meant that Meltzer was saying the opposite of what cm funk is claiming he argued.

[kjh]

I don't know if there's been many articles that clearly bugged Dave as much as Tim Marchman's Deadspin column about the build for Jones vs. Sonnen. It's clearly stuck in his craw.

[pol]

pol is right. He was saying the complete opposite of that and it was really embarrassing. Reminds me of the time Meltzer got into an argument with Snowden on Twitter about the build-up to Jones-Sonnen.

 

At one point, Meltzer was arguing about "people pulling the race card", about how he's going to get people mad at him for saying that, and how race doesn't factor in because Jones got cheered when he beat Shogun Rua in New Jersey. He also framed the introduction to this topic in a disingenuous way. Meltzer came off looking pretty bad.

 

EDIT: Just to clear up, in case there is any confusion, I meant that Meltzer was saying the opposite of what cm funk is claiming he argued.

I don't know enough about the issue to say, but any time a white person starts talking dismissively about "the race card" I'm extremely skeptical of whatever argument they're making.

[The Thread Killer]

You could be a card carrying Klan member and still find at least 5 valid reasons to dislike Jon Jones, without race ever entering into it. Anybody who dislikes him just because he's black is just being lazy and stupid about their reasons.

 

Well, come to mention it...I guess that is pretty much racism defined, innit?

 

But my point stands...there's plenty wrong with Jon Jones and no need for race to even be part of the discussion.

[cm funk]

pol is right. He was saying the complete opposite of that and it was really embarrassing. Reminds me of the time Meltzer got into an argument with Snowden on Twitter about the build-up to Jones-Sonnen.

 

At one point, Meltzer was arguing about "people pulling the race card", about how he's going to get people mad at him for saying that, and how race doesn't factor in because Jones got cheered when he beat Shogun Rua in New Jersey. He also framed the introduction to this topic in a disingenuous way. Meltzer came off looking pretty bad.

 

EDIT: Just to clear up, in case there is any confusion, I meant that Meltzer was saying the opposite of what cm funk is claiming he argued.

 

If he thinks race doesn't matter then why does he keep bringing it up? Did we listen to the same audio? Alvarez just let him go an and on, but when he did his show with Todd Martin Alvarez sounded like he was baffled at what was coming out of Dave's mouth (I don't blame him for not trying to argue with him though, it would have been pointless) and Todd pretty much had the same reaction that I did listening to it

 

whatever point Dave is trying to make.....he's not doing a good job of it

[Eduardo]

I haven't listened to the Alvarez and Martin show, so I can't say what went on there. But this is what Meltzer was saying on WOR on Wednesday. He was using sarcasm in his voice while saying some of this stuff:

 

Meltzer: This is the one that cracks me up the most. None of those things [that were talked about previously] matter, the only reason that people boo him or don't like him, because they should like him 'cause he's so talented, is because they resent a talented black man. That's why.

Alvarez: That's why huh?

Meltzer: It's his race. Whenever somebody pulls the race card about Jon Jones, and people are going to get mad at me for saying this, because a lot of people listening pull it out themselves. Here is the only problem with that. I was at New York, or Jersey actually, Newark, New Jersey, the night Jon Jones...

Alvarez: I'm skeptical this is the only problem but go ahead.

Meltzer:...beat Shogun Rua to win the championship, and everyone in the building cheered him. The people loved him. It wasn't until the Rashad Evans thing [describes the story between Jones and Evans, Jones turning down the fight against Sonnen, etc.]. But it's the race card.

Frustrating but not surprising to hear that Meltzer doesn't understand how race plays a role, and racism, coded language exists in sports, and in the world around us, since he's the same dude that thinks that Flair, and Ole Anderson using the n-word towards black wrestlers and talent is, "It's not so much racism as environment with the n-word and people trying to tell jokes and not aware until after the fact that there were people who didn’t like the jokes."

Anyways, I think kjh is on the right track with saying that that article really got under Meltzer's skin. Even a few years ago Jordan Breen did a very basic break down how race plays a role in combat sports, but I don't know if Meltzer ever directly responded or replied, since him and Breen are buddies.

[rzombie1988]

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

[Bix]

Why would people hate Jon Jones for being black but not hate Cormier, Rampage or Evans for being black also? If it's racism, both people would be hated for being black. I've never even seen a Jones match but upon reading his wiki, I can find minimum 3 reasons not to like him.

 

I don't really like Anderson Silva and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I just think his cockiness and showboating are not admirable.

 

Racism is alive and well though and until we start treating everyone as humans and not races, it will never end.

 

Humble black guy vs. cocky black guy "who doesn't know his place."

[Eduardo]

Yep, what Bix said.

It's not that there aren't legitimate reasons to dislike Jones. This is a dude whose official Instagram and Twitter accounts sent out homophobic comments and messages to fans. And he has other questionable behavior as well.

This is about how race plays a very legitimate role in how fans and media treat, respond to, or frame athletes of color. It's about how historically athletes of color in America, especially black athletes, get harsher reactions as compared to white athletes.

Also, Rashad Evans was given shit for years for the way fans perceived him. Even though media members and fighters would say he was a good, nice guy, he was treated badly by fans for years and accused of being "cocky". Not that it matters whether one is legitimately nice or "cocky", one doesn't deserve to be treated as harshly as Evans was. Anyways, I don't remember who it was, maybe it was Jordan Breen or Greg Savage, but they once told a story about how the fans reacted inside the arena when Evans knocked out Chuck Liddell, and they said it was pretty ugly.

Meltzer acting like race plays no role in modern day combat sports, because he's heard athletes of color receive some positive crowd reactions, is absurd. He also frames the issue like those who are saying that race plays a role, are ignoring other reasons why some people dislike Jones. When in reality, he's the one that is simplifying the issue, by acting like race playing a role is an idea that's so beneath him that the only way to talk about it is to he's mock it, and the people who bring it up.