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Dave Meltzer stuff


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#41 Boondocks Kernoodle

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 06:24 PM

Angle & Abyss had a match at Turning Point 2008 which Dave gave ****1/4.

#42 Al

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 07:47 PM

Even if the TNA run put him over the top, it's insanely dumb to put a guy in the HOF, four years into his career. I mean really, is there any sense in bestowing some honor to a person based on what might happen in the future? And then there's the ultimate reason to wait a while after a wrestler fake-retires to induct them: Chris Benoit.

I agree that it's dumb four years in. It's dumb five years in, it's dumb 10 years in and it's probably not a good idea 15 years into a guy's career. Obviously you can't use the usual sports standard of five years after retirement. But I believe the rock 'n' roll HOF uses a standard of 25 years after a musician/band's debut for eligibility. That's the kind of standard a wrestling Hall of Fame should seek.

#43 tomk

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 09:27 PM

So did I miss the Observer where he praised a Ken anderson v Angle match as Anderson's career best match? I remember Meltz praising an OVW match opposite CM Punk and at least one of the Batista and Undertaker matches. Don't remember the Angle match as career best praise.

#44 Cox

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:11 PM

His review of Anderson/Angle from Lockdown:

7. Kurt Angle beat Mr. Anderson in 20:54. Rules here were that the only way you could win was to leave through the cage door, and Anderson had the keys to the cage since he won the ladder match on Impact. Angle looked the biggest he has in a long time. He was bleeding immediately and Anderson rubbed Angle’s blood all over his chest. Anderson was bleeding soon enough. Angle used a belly-to-belly superplex off the top rope. Angle used a belly-to-belly on the mat, and set up the Olympic slam, until Anderson countered with the Lambeau plunge. He went for the mic check, but Angle blocked and hit six straight German suplexes. This spot was awesome because Angle didn’t do one after the other like Chris Benoit, but took his time and made each one mean something. The crowd was going crazy at that point. Angle then went to the door, showing he could leave, but decided not to, and instead put on the ankle lock. Anderson escaped and hit the mic check finisher. He used his key to open the lock, but Angle got up and gave Anderson another Olympic slam. Angle got to the door, teased leaving, but instead, re-locked the lock. Angle then flipped off Anderson, and threw the key to the lock into the crowd. I hope that means they aren’t stuck in that cage forever. Anderson then tried to climb over the top, but Angle climbed after him. Angle was standing on the top rope in middle, and German suplexed Anderson back into the ring and Anderson landed badly on his shoulder. Angle climbed to the top of the cage and hit the moonsault. He landed badly and looked like he nearly killed himself. Angle unlocked the door and walked out, but before hitting the floor, Anderson flipped him off with both hands. Angle went back in, but Anderson nailed him with a low blow and mic check. Anderson started crawling and was just about out when Angle recovered, put on an ankle lock and pulled Anderson back into the ring. Anderson was tapping like crazy and the place went crazy, thinking he’d won, and couldn’t understand why it was still going. So much for the stipulation of this match getting over on television. As Angle went to leave, Anderson was flipping him off again, but put Angle’s head into the cage and went to escape, but Angle started choking him with the chain that held the medals. After choking Anderson out, Angle spit in his face, stomped on his groin, and walked over him and outside the cage to win. Angle then gave a speech saying that he was going to take time off for a while to mentally regroup, and would return to win the world title. He’s opening a health food café in Pittsburgh this coming week called “Kurt Angle’s Foodies Café.” ****½



#45 Sean Liska

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:59 PM

Well, at least he's getting along with Jarrett. I imagine he'd be a much bigger mess if they didn't come to an understanding a few months ago after Jarrett spoke favorably about him during the custody hearings.

Oh, and in fairness, Dave may have been referring to the gold medal marks aspect of my posts in that thread, and I can honestly see him thinking that nobody voted for him for that reason (or at least not an overwhelming amount of voters).

Since I'm not a subscriber anymore and I don't really remember: About how much was I arguing that it was the gold medal and how much that being voted in when he was (and then changing the rules for the next year to where he wouldn't have been voted in) was ridiculous when you consider all of the elite level workers who had as much or more going for them than he did at the time? And did I make any Lex Luger or Terry Taylor references?


The first couple of pages of the thread were pretty much just you arguing against the board about why Angle didn't deserve to be in for a variety of reason. Dave's point seems to be that it's now clear that anyone against Angle in the HOF has been exposed as clueless.

#46 Dylan Waco

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 12:37 AM

and that is why the WON HoF is a joke. There are hundreds of wrestlers as qualified - or more qualified - than Angle who will never see the Hall.

#47 Loss

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 12:41 AM

Specifically, people in the thread were making the argument that no one had ever gotten that good that fast, and Bix listed over a dozen wrestlers that were that good early in their careers, like Barry Windham, Owen Hart, Jumbo Tsuruta, Ricky Morton, Keichi Yamada, and others. Then, the argument switched to "Well, that doesn't count because they weren't good on the biggest stage of them all that early". Someone even argued that Angle should go in because he has been a great ambassador for pro wrestling. And Bix is the one who looks foolish three years later? In a thread where people are accusing Bix of being contrarian for arguing that Barry freakin' Windham was better than Kurt Angle, an opinion that seems pretty non-controversial to me.

#48 Dan

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 01:13 AM

[WON 100] Shawn Michaels and Nobuhiko Takada... These posts by Dave are from April 2003:

Arguing that Pride isn't pro wrestling in 2003 would be like arguing WWE isn't pro wrestling in 2003. Neither are close to what pro wrestling was in 1970.


Since this is kind of getting sat on...


Posted Image

Pop quiz: Is this closer to Pride or WWE?

#49 S.L.L.

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 09:10 AM

Somebody needs to drag up the quote (pretty sure it was Meltzer who made it) about how if Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt were alive today, and they saw current pro wrestling and MMA, they would point to MMA as their sport. Gotch and Hackenschmidt - save probably for one famous bout - competed in worked matches. They took place in a four-sided ring, typically were 2/3 falls bouts, were notoriously long, and the falls could end by pinning your opponents' shoulders to the mat. Oh, and Hackenshmidt's pre-wrestling background was as a strongman, not as any sort of martial artist. His big appeal was his physique and (in America) his "evil foreigner" status, and his signature move was a bearhug. Don't know that he was ever actually slapped with a "World's Strongest Man" gimmick, but pretty clear that he was a guy sold on gimmicks rather than legit fighting prowess. I'm inclined to think that were either man alive today, they'd recognize MMA as something completely different, and identify wrestling as "their sport", albeit begrudgingly, since it's been ruined by these fancy tumblers and whatnot. They'd have the same reaction that so many other old-timers have to today's wrestling - it's what they were doing, but it's been RUINED FOREVER! for various reasons.

#50 jdw

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 03:25 PM

What SLL and Dan said. John

#51 jdw

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 03:32 PM

That review of Anderson/Angle is pretty disturbing. Guys nearly kill each other several times. One of them is a dude with a history of injuries that helped turn him into a junkie that people (seemingly including Dave) worried would end up dead. Here he is not only putting himself back at risk, but also getting his opponent to be an idiot. I love the notion that the GS was done in a way where "everyone meant something" when not only it by the following ankle lock was blown off with a mic check, which in turn was blown off with an Olympic Slam. Modern wrestling and modern star ratings and modern willingness to ignore all those risky injury inducing spots because it's "fun". I'm thinking Misawa's finally match deserves to be *****+ because it sold the realism of pro wrestling moves. John

#52 kjh

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 03:34 PM

Abyss, Morgan and Anderson all had not only their career best matches with him, but matches that nobody could have conceived any of them could have had beforehand.


In the big picture, what did this *really* mean? Did Angle with his performance make those wrestlers bigger stars to the TNA audience or did he just get himself over? Will any casual fans or even hardcore ones fondly remember these matches in 5, 10, 15 years down the line? TNA's PPVs are the American mainstream wrestling equivalent of an empty forest.

I mean Jeff Jarrett did a good job of carrying an assortment of wrestlers in the early days of TNA, without the need I might add of taking nutty risks on a surgically repaired neck. Is anyone championing him for the Observer Hall Of Fame?

#53 Dylan Waco

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 05:54 PM

It means Dave is an Angle fanboy. Angle has not just NOT been in a draw in TNA. He has traded at WELL BELOW his name value as the companies "big star."

#54 Jingus

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 06:05 PM

Angle has not just NOT been in a draw in TNA. He has traded at WELL BELOW his name value as the companies "big star."

Nobody is a draw in TNA. Heck, Angle is the closest they've had to a draw, since their record-best PPV buyrates have featured him in the main events. Yet they were still only, what, around 60,000 buys or so?

What is a "draw" now? The WWE has few, if any at all. Cena is the only one is said to truly matter, yet the company doesn't seem to take any sharp down-turns in business when he's on the shelf for injuries. Is anyone really a draw now? I wonder if the whole business model of the industry has changed so much that only brands matter. WWE has their brand over with the fans, and TNA clearly doesn't, and that seems to be the immovable constant.

#55 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:45 AM

If Gotch and Hackenschmidt were alive today, wouldn't they latch onto whatever made them a buck? Seems like there'd be more money in claiming they were in the original MMA fights than being part of the wrestling fraternity.

#56 kjh

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:01 AM

Yeah, OJ's right. Gotch and Hackenschmidt were carnies through and through. They'd be trying to peddle the lost art of catch wrestling to gullible amateur fighters if they were alive today.

#57 jdw

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 07:43 AM

It depends on what we're talking about. If they were alive like Lou was alive when MMA started, they would have acted just like Lou. I don't recall Lou putting over MMA as having much of a relation to what he did, and actually took his shots at it early on while putting over the great wrestling "shooters" instead. Perhaps on the Lou Board he was saying positive things about UFC before dying, but I don't really recall it. In his book? I also wouldn't put much into his support of UWFi: they paid him. New Japan and All Japan weren't paying him at that point. While he might have drawn a line at shilling for FMW, Lou would have put over any promotion that paid him to the degree that UWFi did. For the most part, old timers in all sports and entertainment put over what went on in their day. They're hardly revolutionaries, and any "revolution" they support is to drag things back to how they were in their days. I think if you scratch the surface of people in wrestling who put over UFC relative to the WWE, they're not arguing that the WWE should become UFC. They're talking about taking UFC "elements" to incorporate into Pro Wrestling (i.e. fake worked pro wrestling). John

#58 Guest_Slickster_*

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:17 AM

Angle has not just NOT been in a draw in TNA. He has traded at WELL BELOW his name value as the companies "big star."

Nobody is a draw in TNA. Heck, Angle is the closest they've had to a draw, since their record-best PPV buyrates have featured him in the main events. Yet they were still only, what, around 60,000 buys or so?

What is a "draw" now? The WWE has few, if any at all. Cena is the only one is said to truly matter, yet the company doesn't seem to take any sharp down-turns in business when he's on the shelf for injuries. Is anyone really a draw now? I wonder if the whole business model of the industry has changed so much that only brands matter. WWE has their brand over with the fans, and TNA clearly doesn't, and that seems to be the immovable constant.


I agree 100%. I think Vince himself saw the big lesson from the Monday Night Wars as "make sure that no individual talent is bigger than the WWE brand itself." TNA has acquired some of WWE's top talents, yet none of those stars has been able to elevate TNA to seriously affect WWE's business.

Kurt Angle was one of WWE's top stars for almost seven years, headlining WrestleMania and getting consistent crowd reactions. When Kurt Angle left WWE, they simply replaced him in their video packages, put his merchandise on clearance, and elevated someone else to fill his place on the card...and it had zero net impact on WWE's business.

There's a reason WWE doesn't promote specific lineups for house shows; the promise of seeing 'WWE Superstars Live' is enough of a sell by itself. The WWE machine is so good at promoting itself that they have effectively made wrestlers replaceable parts. This is bad for the talent but good for the long-term survival of the WWE business.

TNA, like WCW in the 1990s, labored under the belief that wrestling fans will follow their favorites to TNA, so signing Wrestler X means they will draw all the fans that used to watch Wrestler X's segments on TV. That's no longer the case. WWE could replace the SmackDown roster with the FCW roster this week and it wouldn't have a significant long-term effect on ratings/live gates because the WWE brand name sells so well.

TNA's failure was in their inability to develop, market, and adhere to a specific brand position for their product. ECW has had more of an impact on the business than TNA has had, yet they existed for less time than TNA has. ECW created a cohesive look, feel, and booking style to their product and they stuck with it until the very end. What does TNA stand for? It's a roster comprised mostly of WWE castoffs. To a casual fan there's no reason to watch this product if it's not substantially different from Raw or SmackDown.

#59 KrisZ

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:24 AM

Lou worked for Joe Blanchard in 1983 and they were as blood and guts as it got at that time period so he was basically a whore to whoever would give him the check.

#60 Bix

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:42 AM

"Most amusing promotion Lou Thesz whored himself out to" is a potentially fun topic. If we're going just by ones he did the belt shtick with then it's either Southwest for blood (and manure) reasons or SAPW for "Giving his belt to a recent TBS jobber" reasons.




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