Dave Meltzer stuff

[Victator]

On 7/4/2018 at 10:23 PM, NintendoLogic said:

For the longest time, the highest-rated Vader match on Cagematch was the Flair match at Starrcade.

That doesn't seem right. I do like that match, but I would not say it was his best match in 93.

[PhilTLL]

21 hours ago, sek69 said:

 

I always felt it was an overcorrection from the 90s era of ECW and deathmatches that bordered on gore porn. Some of that stuff was so over the top it killed the impact of seeing blood in wrestling. It's something best when barely used, as seen when Jericho busted up Naito. 

Hell, in WWE it was probably an overcorrection to the years 2002-06.

[RazorbladeKiss87]

Jesus. I have no memory of Cena bleeding like that. What match is that from? 

[Mrzfn]

I believe that's after the JBL I Quit match. He doesn't look THAT bloody during the match but I guess he just kept bleeding after the match was over?

[AA484]

Can't forget about this one:

[SomethingSavage]

It's interesting to think about the blood aspect, but work-rate obsession feels like the real culprit in my mind.

As early as the 80s (but especially in the 90s), there was this talk of how great wrestling would, could, and should be if they'd just focus more on work-rate above all else.

And, to be sure, wrestling spotlighted some embarrassing tendencies in those times. But it's the larger than life characters, the big moments, the outlandish personalities, and the showmanship that really draws money & attention. For a long while there though, fans were constantly bitching & complaining about how much better it would all be if we could just get "better workers" in those spots.

It's a case of "be careful what you wish for", because now wrestling has overcompensated and - in my view - swung too far the other way.

There are practically zero characters. There are guys with traits and personalities, if you squint your eyes & tilt your head to the side just right maybe.

There are angles sometimes, if you count giving guys any excuse to fill time on television every week without it requiring much thought or planning.

It has become all about the matches and the action. So these guys are killing themselves to get a reaction - any reaction - in front of audiences that are essentially there to serve as a panel of judges. It's become a crowd a critics, eager to be impressed so that they may bestow their star ratings unto these wrestlers.

And so the wrestlers gladly continue to work harder & harder, instead of stopping to think about working smarter.

Rather than taking the time & effort to develop characters with meaningful motivations or deeper connections, they'll just line up to take dangerous drops onto the ring apron or whateverthefuck instead.

So yeah. The action has improved greatly. And there's some stuff still clearly worth checking out. I'm not condemning all contemporary wrestling. But it could be so much better if we still got some of that old magic along with the aggressive in-ring style. Instead, the industry has altogether abandoned one method for the other.

[Loss]

I agree with the general sentiment, just as much as I think it's also complicated and might just have to be that way.

When their goal is to be global and have appeal in every market, the only thing they do that won't require translation is the in-ring. I know at one point, that was even their mindset -- that they needed to focus more on wrestling and less on storylines because English-language promos don't work globally.

I think the other issue is that heels aren't distinguished from the company itself, so a heel doing something shocking or tasteless is seen as the company doing it, which is a reputation issue that comes with a heavy cost. This handcuffs them to the extent that heels can do things that are mean and bad, but to do things that would really get a viscerally negative reaction in 2018 would require pushing buttons in a way I can understand why they aren't comfortable doing. It would be perceived as the company doing it, not the heel himself or herself.

Around the beginning of the decade, Vince made the call that WWE needed to be friendlier. They started courting media outlets a lot more. They started working to clean up their image and appeal to sponsors. The old WWE has reared its ugly head at times in moments like the Bill Demott or Mauro/JBL moments, but you'll notice that WWE took active steps in each of those cases to hush everything up. When you look at how WWE does PR, I think they've calculated that it's more important that their wrestlers are articulate, philanthropic, and professional than the Jimmy Valiant types that updated more modern times probably would be more effective drawing cards.

I do think fans clamoring for better matches have played a role in that shift. I just don't think it's them alone, and I'm not sure it wouldn't have happened anyway. What WWE has decided they have more growth potential being meant casting aside of a lot of traditional pro wrestling staples that they had always used to great effect, even while it's always been a company that has defied wrestling norms to a certain extent. That means bye-bye real heels and bombastic personalities who do put more butts in seats but seem much dumber to the outside world. And in a landscape where the real customers are stockholders and TV executives, the outside world perceptions matter more than ever.

[SomethingSavage]

2 hours ago, Loss said:

I agree with the general sentiment, just as much as I think it's also complicated and might just have to be that way.

When their goal is to be global and have appeal in every market, the only thing they do that won't require translation is the in-ring. I know at one point, that was even their mindset -- that they needed to focus more on wrestling and less on storylines because English-language promos don't work globally.

I think the other issue is that heels aren't distinguished from the company itself, so a heel doing something shocking or tasteless is seen as the company doing it, which is a reputation issue that comes with a heavy cost. This handcuffs them to the extent that heels can do things that are mean and bad, but to do things that would really get a viscerally negative reaction in 2018 would require pushing buttons in a way I can understand why they aren't comfortable doing. It would be perceived as the company doing it, not the heel himself or herself.

Around the beginning of the decade, Vince made the call that WWE needed to be friendlier. They started courting media outlets a lot more. They started working to clean up their image and appeal to sponsors. The old WWE has reared its ugly head at times in moments like the Bill Demott or Mauro/JBL moments, but you'll notice that WWE took active steps in each of those cases to hush everything up. When you look at how WWE does PR, I think they've calculated that it's more important that their wrestlers are articulate, philanthropic, and professional than the Jimmy Valiant types that updated more modern times probably would be more effective drawing cards.

I do think fans clamoring for better matches have played a role in that shift. I just don't think it's them alone, and I'm not sure it wouldn't have happened anyway. What WWE has decided they have more growth potential being meant casting aside of a lot of traditional pro wrestling staples that they had always used to great effect, even while it's always been a company that has defied wrestling norms to a certain extent. That means bye-bye real heels and bombastic personalities who do put more butts in seats but seem much dumber to the outside world. And in a landscape where the real customers are stockholders and TV executives, the outside world perceptions matter more than ever.

Great post & excellent points.

 

[sek69]

Another interesting point is what do you do to put over blood feuds in a no blood era? Clearly the JCP mentality of juice in every match is never coming back, but we've seen time and again establishing a feud or match as violent and barbaric comes off as lame with no blood. There is the aspect that because it's so rare to see that accidential blood gets a more visceral reaction from fans not used to seeing it. 

I do think it's an interesting side effect of WWE's Brand Uber Alles campaign that heels can't be heels without it potentially having negative reprocussions to the company.  Heels used to be seen as dastardly guys going against what the company would want wrestlers to do, and now they're seen as characters doing what the company scripts them to do. 

There's also the idea that it used to be the company was always the babyface and authority figures would only be used to punish heels when they did something especially egregious that required a punishment. We've had 20+ years of the company being seen as the bad guy out to screw the heroes. I always thought that had a subconcious effect of making fans get more mad at "real world" missteps since they've already been trained to see the company as the villian.

[returner82]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:02 PM, AA484 said:

Can't forget about this one:

Any time you've done a blade job so bad that you need a blood transfusion after it's gone too far.

[Migs]

On 7/14/2018 at 4:13 PM, sek69 said:

There's also the idea that it used to be the company was always the babyface and authority figures would only be used to punish heels when they did something especially egregious that required a punishment. We've had 20+ years of the company being seen as the bad guy out to screw the heroes. I always thought that had a subconcious effect of making fans get more mad at "real world" missteps since they've already been trained to see the company as the villian.

This definitely goes along with it. You'd think with their reliance on people like Triple H and Stephanie to be brand ambassadors that they'd switch back to being babyfaces to keep the disconnect between the on-screen and off-screen product to a minimum, but it's a story that they have become very reliant on.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

3 new 5-star matches by Big Dave in the latest Observer:

Kenny Omega vs. Tetsuya Naito (G1 Climax)
Kenny Omega vs. Hirooki Goto (G1 Climax)

and....

Kyle O'Reilly & Roderick Strong vs. Trent Seven & Tyler Bate from NXT. That's pretty cool, certainly didn't imagine that would be the kind of match that Dave goes super high on.

[Wahoos Leg]

More 5 star matches seemed like an inevitable consequence of him starting to rank select matches as above 5 stars.

[Loss]

Something's fucked up about all of it when a show with four ***+ matches, Extreme Rules, gets 73% Thumbs Down. He's also set up a situation for himself where people will ask why this match "only" got *****. 

[Dr Starsky]

Dave once told a story about trying to get toothpaste back into his toothpaste tube. Wonder if he's feeling similarly. 

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Has Dave made any kind of statements about where he think Omega stands as a worker, in the grand scheme of things? Because it seems like he loves everything the guy does, and it would almost have to follow that Dave would consider him a legit GOAT candidate.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

17 hours ago, Yo-Yo's Roomie said:

Has Dave made any kind of statements about where he think Omega stands as a worker, in the grand scheme of things? Because it seems like he loves everything the guy does, and it would almost have to follow that Dave would consider him a legit GOAT candidate.

It certainly seems that way.

[Loss]

Not about Omega, but I know he pretty definitively said Okada had the greatest world title run ever. Used to be a reporter, and now he's Vince McMahon, trying to write history in real time instead of letting people draw their own conclusions.

[William Bologna]

It's not just Omega's work either. It's not my cup of tea, but I can understand why people like. He's very good at that sort of thing if you like that sort of thing.

But Meltzer's over the moon about everything else too. He loves Omega's promos. He breathlessly recaps his YouTube videos. He's a complete mark for the guy, and I just don't get it.

I like Meltzer a lot - I think he's a pretty straight shooter, and he knows everything. But I find his preferences regarding modern wrestling to be pretty goofy.

[Coffey]

The biggest issue is that with Dave Meltzer becoming so biased, it brings his journalistic integrity into question. At least for me. Maybe that's a bit much but that's how I feel. Like, Okada, Omega & The Young Bucks are straight-up treated more favorably than anyone else. He has always had strong opinions that leaned a certain way. Like you can tell he's a fan of car-crash ladder matches but lately it almost feels like Meltzer himself is a damn member of the Bullet Club. 

Having personal preferences & being a fan is cool but not when he spent so long trying to pretend he was  above all of that & just a reporter. Now he just looks like a mark. He's never been a great (or elegant) speaker, he desperately needs an editor for his writing & now his Twitter is pretty much just trying to work trolls up. We can't pretend that he doesn't have an influence on a generation of wrestling fans. You even have the English commentators on live New Japan Pay-Per-Views referencing star ratings of matches for their wrestlers. Personally, I find it all really detrimental to pro-wrestling.

[Loss]

He's set up an echo chamber where everyone (not literally, but you know what I mean) likes what he likes. And if you're someone who doesn't like what "everyone" likes, then you're someone out of touch with current wrestling. I agree that it's detrimental to pro wrestling, mainly because no one person should have that much influence no matter who they are. Him having that much influence is better than it would be with many (maybe most) having it. But it's still changed wrestling in many ways. Some good, but some bad too.

[sek69]

Plus there's a whole cottage industry of workers trying to troll Dave like it's the wrestling version of "triggering the libs" only they don't seem to realize how lame it all comes off as. 

 

*random Twitter person who listens to podcast* Man, Wrestling Guy With A Podcast sure owned Meltzer on that one!

*Dave, mookie, or Bix type person* Here's all the actual legal docs and proof that shows Dave was right and/or Wrestling Guy With A Podcast is full of shit. 

*second random Twitter person who listens to podcast* YEAH HE GOT OWNED, SUCK IT DAVE MARKS HASH TAG CASTRATED

.

...repeat ad nausem

[Loss]

They also seem to call him a liar every single time he mentions having talked to someone like Vince McMahon. I can see being skeptical if you haven't paid attention, but he's in public conversations with the NJPW guys, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin, Jim Ross, Jim Cornette, HHH, etc. in 2018. Would this really be the case if he just made stuff up for the last 35 years?

[Coffey]

2 hours ago, Loss said:

He's set up an echo chamber where everyone (not literally, but you know what I mean) likes what he likes. And if you're someone who doesn't like what "everyone" likes, then you're someone out of touch with current wrestling. I agree that it's detrimental to pro wrestling, mainly because no one person should have that much influence no matter who they are.

Which is probably my favorite reason for being a member of Pro Wrestling Only as that echo chamber doesn't exist here. It's damn near impossible for me to read r/SquaredCircle or Twitter wrestling stuff anymore.

[Beast]

Dave seems to feel that older 4/5 star matches don't hold up compared to today's best work.

That's an outlier opinion here, correct? Like, maybe Bret & Owen weren't doing a bunch of high flying moves at WM X, but the psychology and actual back and forth is better than 99% of what occurs today. Same with something like Murdoch vs. Windham. 

It's frustrating because when he pulls out that card, it's impossible to argue with him about hyperbole because the logic is already gone. He's consistent in saying today's wrestlers and matches are the best wrestling's ever been.