Dave Meltzer stuff

[Jmare007]

55 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Why would the Elite want to leak information that would undermine their bargaining position, true or not?

The first report doesn't undermine their bargaining position at all. It was basically "people that didn't think about leaving might think about it now", which could lead to them getting better offers so they would stay. Or push WWE to make them a good offer to finally convince them to jump ship.

[NintendoLogic]

WWE can lowball you and New Japan can call your bluff if they think you're looking to jump ship. If you're trying to negotiate a bigger payday, it's to your advantage for them to think you're happy where you are and it would take a significant offer to get you to consider changing your mind. WWE paid out the nose to sign Styles and Nakamura because they thought that was the only way to get them to jump.

[sek69]

Also it gives them cover from any backlash from their fans if they go to the Evil WWE Empire to say "well things went downhill in Japan so we had no choice".

[Zoo Enthusiast]

41 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Also it gives them cover from any backlash from their fans if they go to the Evil WWE Empire to say "well things went downhill in Japan so we had no choice".

Yeah that's my take.

[William Bologna]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

WWE can lowball you and New Japan can call your bluff if they think you're looking to jump ship. If you're trying to negotiate a bigger payday, it's to your advantage for them to think you're happy where you are and it would take a significant offer to get you to consider changing your mind. WWE paid out the nose to sign Styles and Nakamura because they thought that was the only way to get them to jump.

Is your argument that they couldn't have leaked this info because that's not how you would have handled their contract negotiations?

[sek69]

Alternate theory: they want to stay in New Japan, and floating stories of potential unrest could prompt New Japan to make a larger offer than they would have to keep and/or pacify them.  Right now everyone knows they want to stay, and that WWE really doesn't like upending their pay scale, and that WWE likely doesn't see all of them worth backing up the money truck (maybe they would for Kenny but probably not for Cody and the Bucks), so what motivation did President Harold have to make them a bigger money offer?  I could see their play being to see if they can make him pay up if they make him feel he's losing the room.  

[NintendoLogic]

22 minutes ago, William Bologna said:

Is your argument that they couldn't have leaked this info because that's not how you would have handled their contract negotiations?

My argument is that whoever relayed this to Dave did it in earnest and not as part of some 11th-dimensional chess negotiating strategy or a CYA move if/when they do jump. I don't think Dave is either dumb enough to allow himself to be manipulated in such a manner or unethical enough to put PR disguised as journalism in his newsletter.

12 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Alternate theory: they want to stay in New Japan, and floating stories of potential unrest could prompt New Japan to make a larger offer than they would have to keep and/or pacify them.  Right now everyone knows they want to stay, and that WWE really doesn't like upending their pay scale, and that WWE likely doesn't see all of them worth backing up the money truck (maybe they would for Kenny but probably not for Cody and the Bucks), so what motivation did President Harold have to make them a bigger money offer?  I could see their play being to see if they can make him pay up if they make him feel he's losing the room.  

WWE would back up the money truck if it meant kneecapping their biggest rival. And again, the way to get WWE to do that is to make it known that you love working for New Japan and it would take a pretty hefty offer to make you consider leaving. I'm sure that if Omega and company were consulting Dave on negotiation strategy, he'd tell them the exact same thing.

[William Bologna]

10 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

My argument is that whoever relayed this to Dave did it in earnest and not as part of some 11th-dimensional chess negotiating strategy or a CYA move if/when they do jump. I don't think Dave is either dumb enough to allow himself to be manipulated in such a manner or unethical enough to put PR disguised as journalism in his newsletter.

WWE would back up the money truck if it meant kneecapping their biggest rival. And again, the way to get WWE to do that is to make it known that you love working for New Japan and it would take a pretty hefty offer to make you consider leaving. I'm sure that if Omega and company were consulting Dave on negotiation strategy, he'd tell them the exact same thing.

You just restated my premise there, so the answer is yes: They couldn't have leaked that information because that's not how you would have handled their contract negotiations.

[NintendoLogic]

Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion or are you just shitposting?

[sek69]

To be clear, I don't think Dave is being dumb, but he does kind of have a history where he develops blind spots for guys he gets close to.  By that I mean he's doing everything above board, but at times I think he forgets just because he has friendships with guys that means they stop being workers looking out for their own interests. 

[William Bologna]

5 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion or are you just shitposting?

Just trying to figure out why you think you know so much about everyone's business that you can summarily dismiss the idea of strategic leaks to Dave. Is fantasy booking contract negotiations a thing? Is that what you're doing?

[NintendoLogic]

I am skeptical of strategic leaks when the leaks are clearly counterproductive to the interests of the supposed leakers. I'm also skeptical that someone who's been dealing with professional carnies for 30-plus years is completely oblivious to when he's being worked.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

41 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I am skeptical of strategic leaks when the leaks are clearly counterproductive to the interests of the supposed leakers. I'm also skeptical that someone who's been dealing with professional carnies for 30-plus years is completely oblivious to when he's being worked.

Sure, that would be true if this was counterproductive.  In this case, I think these guys are all already going to WWE so it's a matter of having an easy scapegoat to protect all parties involved.

[Jmare007]

I mean, if we are talking about being counterproductive to their interests, this part doesn't make a lot of sense either:

Quote

"(...)feel like they are seen as workers in a factory assembly line as opposed to high level athletes or entertainers.

The excitement so many had for working here has taken a hit. It’s really a bad time for that with the goal of international expansion and that fun vs. WWE money was a key to a lot of people, but if you lower the fun aspect, that changes the equation, and basically we’re coming in on the single most interesting and important contract season since New Japan started garnering some international growth. There are people who in the past had never even considered WWE who are thinking about it."

So it's no fun anymore because you are seen as a factory worker, so fuck it and take a bigger deal elsewhere so they can at least be richer factory workers that are working more than before?

[cad]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

My argument is that whoever relayed this to Dave did it in earnest and not as part of some 11th-dimensional chess negotiating strategy or a CYA move if/when they do jump. I don't think Dave is either dumb enough to allow himself to be manipulated in such a manner or unethical enough to put PR disguised as journalism in his newsletter.

How else would you describe large swaths of the Konnan HOF bio?

Quote

This may well give Carlos the time to focus on the world of MMA, or something outside pro wrestling. Carlos has been doing MMA training at a gym in Chula Vista, the home to fighters such as Brandon Vera and WEC bantamweight champion Dominick Cruz. While his current age (46) and medical history (hip replacement, kidney transplant, heart stent) will preclude any actual MMA combat, his quick pick-up of the fundamentals of the sport, and his quick mind and unique vocal style, may point Carlos in the direction of a career in color commentary or TV work, perhaps for the Spanish language audience as MMA expands.
On a completely other hand, Carlos has spoken publicly and privately of how he is intrigued with the concept of entering local politics in Chula Vista (this reporter has lived in Chula Vista since August 1998; Carlos has lived in Chula Vista off and on since 1989). For a fairly large city (population close to but not quite 250,000, one of the 80 most populous cities in the U.S.), Chula Vista has very small-town suburban developer-driven local politics. In a city where over 2/3 of the residents are Hispanics), Republicans keep just dominating local political elections, with Hispanic representation in the city political structure basically zero. Carlos would be so totally unlike anyone who has run for political office in this city that just his throwing a hat into the ring would send the San Diego Union-Tribune and The Chula Vista Star-News editors dancing into the hallway with glee, for all the good copy and stories that would result. And after all, if you’ve run a wrestling office before, is city politics that much different?

 

[El-P]

I really don't see what the incentive for any of those guys would be to sign with the WWE, especially *now*. Apart from an obscene amount of money, what do they have to gain ? They have worked very hard to make themselves stars in NJ and in the indie scene, All In was a huge success, all of this for Cody to get right back to the WWE ? Kenny Omega takes a great pride in his matches and style, and it's obvious he'll never get to work the way he wants in the WWE. He's about to main event the Tokoy Dome, why would he go to the WWE ? Be fed to Roman Reigns ? Work a great mid-card program with Dolph Ziggler and backstage skits with Baron Corbin ? Like I said, apart from an obscene amount of money (which comes from, well, you know whom…), there's nothing to gain for them really now, they are as hot as ever and they pretty much do what they want. In some time, sure, but right now (without even taking in account the possible incoming huge backlash of the saudi deal), I don't see it.

(edit : well, of course if Meltz is actually right about the morale being down in NJ now, it's pretty different)

[FMKK]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

I really don't see what the incentive for any of those guys would be to sign with the WWE, especially *now*. Apart from an obscene amount of money, what do they have to gain ? They have worked very hard to make themselves stars in NJ and in the indie scene, All In was a huge success, all of this for Cody to get right back to the WWE ? Kenny Omega takes a great pride in his matches and style, and it's obvious he'll never get to work the way he wants in the WWE. He's about to main event the Tokoy Dome, why would he go to the WWE ? Be fed to Roman Reigns ? Work a great mid-card program with Dolph Ziggler and backstage skits with Baron Corbin ? Like I said, apart from an obscene amount of money (which comes from, well, you know whom…), there's nothing to gain for them really now, they are as hot as ever and they pretty much do what they want. In some time, sure, but right now (without even taking in account the possible incoming huge backlash of the saudi deal), I don't see it.

They don't have to particularly want to sign for WWE to be working that angle to improve their contracts though I guess.

[Wahoos Leg]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

I really don't see what the incentive for any of those guys would be to sign with the WWE, especially *now*. Apart from an obscene amount of money, what do they have to gain ? They have worked very hard to make themselves stars in NJ and in the indie scene, All In was a huge success, all of this for Cody to get right back to the WWE ? Kenny Omega takes a great pride in his matches and style, and it's obvious he'll never get to work the way he wants in the WWE. He's about to main event the Tokoy Dome, why would he go to the WWE ? Be fed to Roman Reigns ? Work a great mid-card program with Dolph Ziggler and backstage skits with Baron Corbin ? Like I said, apart from an obscene amount of money (which comes from, well, you know whom…), there's nothing to gain for them really now, they are as hot as ever and they pretty much do what they want. In some time, sure, but right now (without even taking in account the possible incoming huge backlash of the saudi deal), I don't see it.

(edit : well, of course if Meltz is actually right about the morale being down in NJ now, it's pretty different)

 

This summarizes my thoughts on the matter. They're better off staying where they are unless the money WWE throws at them is just too much to turn down... and I just can't see them paying that much for them as a group

 

Also, when I saw Meltzer's report, my guess (and it's a total guess) was that Elgin was the source, given his general floundering on the card since re-upping and past grousing about his professional lot  

[El-P]

35 minutes ago, Wahoos Leg said:

Also, when I saw Meltzer's report, my guess (and it's a total guess) was that Elgin was the source, given his general floundering on the card since re-upping and past grousing about his professional lot  

Interesting guess.

Funny, I was actually glad to not see much of Elgin in NJ cards lately and can't wait until Jeff Cobb shows up. Elgin can go suck in NXT for all I care.

On the "Meltz doesn't get it" side (for once, I've been defending him on so many issues), his opinion of Taichi is completely ridiculous. You can absolutely not be a fan of the act if that's not you're style, but to say he's terrible and he does *nothing* makes no sense whatsoever. I'm looking forward to his match with Ospreay and not in a "Can Ospreay carry this terrible guy to a decent match ?" way, but because it's probably gonna be a really good match with some fun shit and a different dynamic.

Likewise, the idea that Toa Henare should be a big star leaves me dumbfounded. The guy is decent, but he's reached the point of go-away heat with me, can't stand the gimmick, he looks like a reject from the early 90's WWF (and before someone says how offensive I am because he's playing on his "cultural heritage", fuck off already, the guy is totally overdoing the haka routine and sticks his tongue out like a goof before every spot, he's a walking cliché and he's annoying as hell.).

[NintendoLogic]

12 hours ago, Zoo Enthusiast said:

Sure, that would be true if this was counterproductive.  In this case, I think these guys are all already going to WWE so it's a matter of having an easy scapegoat to protect all parties involved.

What makes you think that? It would mean that either they've decided to jump without even knowing what WWE would offer them (highly unlikely) or they've already negotiated and reached an informal agreement (which would be a tampering lawsuit waiting to happen).

[Migs]

There's another path here - they're thinking of leaving New Japan to *start their own promotion*, basically a TV deal for Being the Elite, and they need cover for that (or negotiating leverage). Cody keeps talking on 10 Pounds of Gold about breaking down barriers and how exciting 2019 will be. They could easily add most of the All In roster. My gut is that they have something lined up which would probably cut ROH out of the picture, and maybe New Japan if the deal isn't right. No one really cares about ROH, but them leaving New Japan could be a big deal. And so they either need to bluff New Japan into making a deal that gives them even more freedom, or give themselves a clean excuse when they leave. 

A side point - all the guys in the Elite have made a point that they're recently released new Bullet Club shirt designs will be their last Bullet Club designs. Presumably this relates to them wanting to stick with merch that New Japan doesn't get a cut of. It's another point in what's clearly an ongoing conversation about what their situation looks like next year.

[Wahoos Leg]

Them starting their own promotion and teaming up with Billy Corgan would be a most interesting scenario

[Loss]

Is there something I'm missing? Why is no one taking this story at face value as a genuine feeling?

[sek69]

It's just striking a lot of people as odd that all these tales of New Japan strife come out just as the Elite guys are about to become free agents. 

[Loss]

Why is that odd?