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Johnny P

DVDVR 80s Project
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  1. Loved Stuttsy's breakdown. Really hits a lot of important points. I’ve edited this down from the original review I wrote up a year ago (I watched the first 8 matches, then folded) so everyone has more to comment on. I’ll ask some questions too. Feel free to do the same. Watched this one 3 times now. It does not get less exciting and old, and though that makes it ripe for nitpicks, I don’t feel like it gets boring or there are a ton (at least I can ignore them because they are small and taste-based). Have not watched the supplemental YT playlist leading up to this one, but I assume it at least explains the white mask and fake hair of Rose. I know he lost a hair match. Anyone Got the story? Regardless, the first 5 to 7 minutes are a clinic in how to take a crowd you’re already getting big heat from weekly and save your body while working them up. Points to Rose for saving his body while entertaining me. Also, I just loved the real sport psychology of how Rose would sucker him in and control the situation. Non-title, which gives you options to work to a return. Martel is so over here and its awesome. Also, I’m a huge mark for the body work Rose does. Indian Deathlocks rule. Also, did Rose invent the calf killer here, or use an early variation of that. I imagine Styles didn’t create it, but it isn’t something I’ve seen a million times. Was a HUGE fan of Martel selling the leg. Really builds, leading to him losing the first fall and overcoming in the second. There’s actually a fun story where he refuses to take a countout win in the second fall and destroys Rose’s back, winning the second with the Boston Crab (for the back work), so its kinda two damaged warriors putting it all out there by the third fall. I love that the work in each fall lead to the finish. Third fall was short, like the first match, as it seems they really get miles out of the first fall so far and do in descending time intervals with each fall. Feels like they finish the match on a lull, even if the fans were way into it. This was a great finish one way or the other from being one of my favorite matches in some time, and even with the mask/whig countout victory, I still loved this one. Gonna be tough for me to put something to high over this, as I’d go 4 ½ Stars on this. The style matched where the feud felt like it was. Not a lot of rope running or stand offs, trades. This was kill or be killed. Bonnema line of the match: The general line of the mask being part of Rose’s “legal match equipment” and therefore needing to be returned at the end by Sandy Bar. Regarding Rose: Is this one of the best complete heel performances at getting heat within a match during the 80s, both towards Martel, but directly with the crowd? What are the other ones? How did people feel about Martel’s selling and then overall comeback? Good use of match story and selling or was their a hole that took you out of the drama? Was the finish of the third fall and the match cool and in character, unsatisfying since it was Non-Title to begin with, or something else to you? Fan of the times they give each fall or no? What’s your feeling on how three falls should play out, time wise, if you have 25 to 30 minutes to play with?
  2. Hey Matt, I just saw you asking about this "people doing Portland" thing in the GME thread and left a note for everyone, but also sort of directed at you (because you asked). Thanks for popping in and dropping a few words. Def echo those sentiments. I thought Martel had gotten there a little earlier, some time in 1979. This reveal makes it even more fascinating. By our second match on the set he is a God to the PSA audience. There was a really good podcast on Portland a few years back (a single pod) that reviewed some stuff, but gave a lot of info/background on Portland. I think it was from people in the PWO family. were you involved there, or am I making that up in my head? Also, feel free to join in.
  3. Guilty. also, join in if you haven't gone through the set. This is my "my bad" to myself and other people who actually don't care that I'm an idiot. For years I used my personal friendship with w/ Will, Dylan and Pete to periodically lobby for the Portland 80s set to be put together before the window closed (i could feel it coming). I then grabbed a copy after watching the 1977-79 playlist for months at night to prep... and then watched all 8 matches. The first 8 matches. All that after doing like 5 sets prior and taking the whole process like a (very enjoyable) job. I suck. so this is me making it right w/ some friends, and hopefully others that become friends/reconnect. By the way, I found this by accident. I sort of knew this was happening but didn't fully have it as a reality. Love it. Def want to participate. Still in the opening 20 minutes of discovery, so I'll get up to speed and see if participation is possible. Great idea though. thanks, Steven (and others who have helped do this).
  4. Digging all these thoughts/reviews so far, and nodded at so many thoughts from others on things like Race's famed corner bud, the older couples in the ring, Bonnema's style as announcer, the structure of the match, the pros and cons for the arm work in the first fall. We're halfway already to this being all I'd hoped for. But, as has been pointed out to me there is the risk that some might not say to much if they think all the observations are taken (I say post that stuff anyway and we can acknowledge each other or ask why they felt that way). So, with that in mind, I'd love to get some interaction/discussion going. In keeping with the joking theme of a book club, I have some questions for everybody. Feel free to ask some of your own too if you're reading the reviews after matches and wondering things: Saw some people commenting that while they liked the match, the finish didn’t quite bring it home. I like the finish in the macro (time limit draw with the babyface title challenger having the advantage, not able to find a way to win before the bell), but do think I’m slightly in the camp on the micro (the way this particular Race/Martel match finished). Do you think the finish is bad in the macro - this is just an unsatisfying finish for what they were going for no matter what - or is there a way to do the same finish, but better in your eyes? Is Harley Race as great as the older generation has positioned him to be for our age group, or is that a false narrative? Maybe somewhere in-between? I commented on the Race is like Kurt Angle thing, and Grimmas (Steven) brought it up too. JB seemed dissatisfied w/ Race here. But I also thought this was a good showing from Race, that he was giving to his opponent while still being a champion, and that he followed a good script of his own making or co-creation on the fly. If you dislike Race or just Race in this match, is there a way to maximize him for you personally that makes him “better,” and if you like him, what does he do to make you like him (in ring, persona, move set, match layouts, etc)? I’m so happy there’s been love for Martel here. I never liked him as a kid because I didn’t like his character in the WWF, and I’m from the northeast stronghold/a child of the 80s. Yet I loved Martel guesting on Memphis set vs Lawler, loved him in the AWA, thought his stuff in All Japan was better than people gave him credit for. What’s the difference between WWF Martel and pre- WWF Martel? Is he better as a face even if more famous as a heel? What was his ceiling if he goes to the NWA, or ½ territories stay strong and take him in? I’m in the camp that wished the Martel arm work would have gone somewhere. Do people think they should have had Martel win the first fall, lose the second, or does that also hurt the match? Also, would you rather have had no arm work, arm work but go somewhere with it, or maybe had him try to focus on the sleeper or on strikes in the first fall?
  5. Other stray thoughts: -I'm just in love with Frank Bonnema and I'll be gushing periodically throughout the process. I love the breezy way he announces by himself. I love the charm of the local announcements. I love the way he explains the leverage of a move. -I love the sports presentation/approach to wrestling. Of actual world building where their is a competition, rules, and a "real" reason for things happening. -Got a kick out of them announcing over the house mic something like "Bob Smith, you're wanted at the front door. bob, please come to the front door." -Watch the older couples in the front row as the set progresses, especially how angry/disgusted they are with Buddy Rose. You def need to check out the Youtube playlists for promos between falls or after them where Rose and Piper are concerned, and Dutch Savage as a semi-retired authority figure kills it too. -Don Owen and his jacket, in the same way the guy from Mid South is, is a national treasure. Always feel like even after 30 or more years of being involved that Owen is uncomfortable with his participation in the worked/pretend parts of being onscreen, and yet very much wants to be the ring announcer. Its like he's kind of insecure or maybe suspect to the real-life motivations of the heels even though they are in character in these cases, but thinking about Piper or Rose being such carnies, maybe he's right to be even when supposedly "in character." He doesn't quite sell for the moment, so to speak, is what I'm getting at. -I DO give Race to much crap without verbalizing a lot of little things he does well. His giving nature, understanding of the ups and downs of the in-ring story, selling even after taking control, facial expressions and presence. I'm very big on "movements" though, not speed or high flying, but the way you you, when, how you execute, and how it fits in to what you're trying to accomplish, and Race only fulfills that very subjective box in moments for me. -Example: I'm prob to harsh on something like Race's piledriver execution, placement, and where he does it, but part of it is that he's bigger and has a heavy rep, and so I figure he's strong enough to drop down with more velocity and protect the guy, really make that move a flourish in his arsenal, and protect when he does it. I know others have compared him to criticisms of peak Kurt Angle - doing lots of cool "movez" but not thinking about when and where to do them, and the degree of the move's impact, but I'm kinda like "Race does lots of bigger moves? Really?" Making that ripple out, its interesting that now we have a generation of really big moves, and often those are higher impact and flying, so it almost seems weird to discuss, but if we're talking NBA games, we usually would critique someone like Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell within their time frame (60s), so I'm looking at it from an early 80s perspective (I NEED to really go back and watch Race from 70s, like the Lawler stuff, the Funk matches, maybe some stuff w/ Baba or Jumbo from All Japan) -Since I loved Joe walking away from someone doing a blind twisting splash off the ropes, I totally dug Race doing it here is a more fluid, less "this is a spot we do" way. Also, what was Martel's plan after the 2nd Fall when he argues with Ref Sandy Barr about waking up Race from the sleeper (and isn't that an interesting touch that fell off of wrestling narrative in 80s)? What if Race died? Some hero. Also, since we know they really don't address that in babyface moments like this, was the plan that Barr would have to start a 10 count on Race at the start of the 3rd fall? Okay, that's clever if not usually a heelish move for Iron Man matches, buuuuut... in Portland they'd go to the back between falls and often do promos in-between. Was Martel going to leave him unconscious for like 10 minutes to satiate the bloodthirsty fans at the Portland sports Arena? Its way to "heavy" for wrestling as its commonly been depicted, but I like the idea of Race playing like he might actually be dead then jumping a distraught Martel when medics come out to resuscitate Race. -The drama at the end was really palpable, and mentioning that the World title never changed hands in Portland w/ some excitement about the prospect raised the emotion for me. also loved that throughout the whole thing they did identify moves that worked, carried that through, while never going over a line in terms of "why is he fine taking that now" or "well it should be over because that was far to big to come back from." I know you never see that in these types of territories, but that's the point. I never see something where I go, "screw the match being over (and it isn't), his career is in jeopardy, maybe his life" from a move that ultimately doesn't mean anything within the story. I wish wrestlers better identified "escalating moves" and they were sub-finisher in terms of impact and visual damage, so this problem didn't exist for me. -Loved the finish. Race kept turning into the Sleeper to alleviate the pressure, something I do wish Bonnema mentioned, but it may have sacrificed some of the drama of a possible finish before the bell. I dislike the modern argument of those trying to define people like me as "selling fetishists" because while I agree on the surface with the idea (I know VOW's Rich/Joe forward) of "the guy tried to work the body part and had to give up cause it just didn't work," that's NOT what usually is going on. The guy is effective in targeting the arm, for example, the other guy sells that he is, in fact, in pain, but then he blows that off. A better use of this would be a good commentator doing what Joe Rogan would do on color for UFC: Explaining what Wrestler A is targeting, what he's trying to do, and that while he needs to do (insert movement) the other guy is mostly defending it to a stalemate. Of course, wrestlers would have to act accordingly for story telling purposes, and that's difficult these days. But you can work selling into a comeback and a match story just fine. I've seen it done in CWF Mid Atlantic, which made me a fan of the promotion. -Speaking of which, final thought: this Portland weekly show and the character work and stories, along with fan reactions, is very much why I fell in love w/ CWF Worldwide during their first 2+ years on Youtube as a weekly series. Same great episodic feel, look, crowd, world that had been built up and drawing from their and other's histories.
  6. I’ve never liked Harley, but Martel’s pre-WWF work became a revelation as I jumped from 80s set to 80s set. His work with Flair in All Japan. His work with Lawler in that Memphis match. His work in the AWA, especially vs Bockwinkel. I’m excited to see what he can bring to a big time match in an excellent atmosphere like the Portland Sports Arena. This match is 2/3 Falls for the NWA Heavyweight title. Race is the traveling world champ, so he makes Martel look good because he’s of the mold that making a local challenger shine is part of his job description. Martel responds to a slap before the bell, and shows fire from then on. Race tries to slow it, stalls, bumps, and sells for Martel just as the formula often dictates. He even gives the vaunted Harley Race bump in the corner over the buckles to the floor. A big move in this match is body slam, so there's nothing too flashy, but the story is better and more consistent than most matches the last 15 to 20 years. Commentator Frank Bonnema is a joy who adds so much real world feel and local flare to this presentation. He’s everything I loved about Harry Kalas and Richie Ashburn on the radio when I was a kid, growing up listening to Philadelphia Phillies baseball games in the summer. The way he fills in how every promoter wanted this for their town, or reacts to the fans reacting to Martel working the arm with holds, is calm, understated and yet trusted. It's what I imagined people thought of Walter Cronkite delivering them the news in the 1960s. First fall hinges a lot on how much movement/the type of movement you need in your wrestling, and if a charismatic Martel constantly finding a way to isolate a frustrated Race's arm and ground him can hold your attention. The first few minutes I'm into it, the next few I drift, wanting some sort of progression or dramatic story beat within the match layout. Martel usually does something to bring me back - until it doesn't. Highspot here is Martel sending Race from the top buckle to the mat and then going right back on the arm, but this gets long in the tooth for me as he cranks the holds without seeming to progress towards a finish from there. Race turns the tide on a stungun across the top rope on Martel's throat, then a pile driver. The pile driver is the oddly lackadaisical version where Race falls back, slowly. In fact, from this point forward it's a run of dated and soft offense by Race, reminding me why I never got into the guy. I do realize the match itself is “dated,” but some offense looks great when properly executed no matter when you perform it. Race pins Martel somewhere after the 15-minute mark, and continues his dominance in the second fall, but I still can't buy the guy in his lofty position. I hope this changes after watching him and Funk from Houston, but I think he's average at best offensively in the ring (and that IS considering the time period), dull or uninteresting in his movements and how he executes them, hyperbolic in others. The two things I can find about him to justify his reputation are his look and persona. His mic skills, which seem to be an extension of those two things in sound form, flow from there and are great. The first fall did lose me by the end, and for better or worse I’ve identified Race as the culprit, the guy steering the ship in my estimation, in this one. Maybe that’s unfair. Part of my problem, I realize in the second fall, is that the struggle feels very real when they are in holds, but getting into those holds does not feel like a struggle at all. 5 minutes remaining announced to crowd early in the second, so you can see where this might be headed, and that seems reasonable given they're not going to do a title change in front of a few hundred fans in Portland, Oregon. Martel's piledriver looks better than Race's, even doing the fall-back version, and part of that is that Race is a bigger guy so it seems more “wild and out of control.” Race gets his foot on the ropes, a heel champ move I’ve loved in Flair and Danielson title runs, and I love it here. Martel’s offense looks excellent, gets the fans into the idea of him winning, but not completely convinced or losing themselves. His offensive hot streaks are the best part of this match, and his execution really is great in a way that feels "real" in a wrestling context. He's faster and younger, but the vet champ continues to sidestep and outsmart. I enjoy that character dynamic. Martel uses a sleeper that is (to me) the perfect length, wins the second fall. 1-1 tie, and the fans are emotionally all in now. I’m pretty there too, frankly. Cool old-school moment where Martell wakes up Race from the sleeper, which is a storyline thing in the seventies. Love the explanation and play-by-play from Bonnema. Early in the third—and deciding—fall, Race gets caught in the sleeper again, but he's too wily and takes it to the floor immediately. It looks great and folds perfectly into the match story progression. Piledriver tease on the cement floor becomes a back body drop. Countout tease isn't as over as you'd hope, but he brings him back in and is in complete control. Really does feel like everything's falling into place and clicking, with possible exception of the arm work from the first fall not meaning anything—but you can always argue it was a tactic that wasn't successful to begin with, a perfectly acceptable part of a story. Race just bumps and sells like crazy as they announce 1 minute left. His offense is played as desperate and unearned. Martel grabs the sleeper once again, Race is perfect with theatrics of struggle and fading, but it is a time limit draw. Match ends as a draw. I'll say this: it all came together well, Martel looked great both in work and execution, but as a storyline babyface, and Race played his role perfectly. As a card carrying Race nitpicker this may have been my favorite Race performance in isolation. I wasn't a big fan of the arm work going nowhere in the first fall, and I like the concept of the heel turning it around and stealing the fall to go up early, but it really didn't resonate. However, the second fall course-corrected the pace issue and the internal logic, and the finish to that fall was great ( Martel tried several times for the sleeper, so it made sense to have him win with it). Third fall brought it all together and left me legitimately interested in a rematch. Solid to very good stuff that emotionally involved the fans. If I were gonna quantify this for a recommendation (which is what star ratings really are) I'd go 3 ½ Stars
  7. Going to hit up Evolve in Joppa on Sunday night (very odd time to book a show for N.E. indies and that promotion in general, but...) for Riddle vs Hero III. Stoked for that, and a few other things on the card I believe looked good (its been a week, I have no idea what the card is anymore). Just as excited because JR Goldberg will be there to catch up with, Pappa Hales will be around, and I think Quinton Moody too. So the people as much as the show are a draw, and an old friend lives 3 minutes away from the venue. Win all around.
  8. This is somewhat of white noise to me, as a lot of stuff on the net is. I saw this at some point (days, weeks ago?) and right away knew what it was by the site. The type of fans that come here are a certain type (A lot of us wish the "Masked Man" would mail all his paychecks back then hang himself). But this isn't one person, so it is actually easier to explain. Cageside is an SB Nation blog. The people that own SB Nation could give a shit about wrestling, they're in the website content business. They just want to monetize the site. They could care about wrestling. It's cool that a few people there at the actual site seem to care about wrestling, but at the end of the day they need to drive traffic to get they $5 or whatever the site can pay them. Bracket is about what my 11 yr old niece - a WWE TV watcher - would write out today (complete with the immediacy of Ellseworth) along with the type of fan who has sort of heard Hansen is important, and Funk, and....they just prob Googled a few equally mainstream lists and tossed it all in.
  9. You know, I was going to respond back to Van Fair that his comment is somewhat reductively true in a very general sense (Well, except that making a list, or frankly being Bill Barnwell is not a journalist, that's a columnist, and those are two separate issues)....then I saw this kids Twitter thanks to Nintendo Logic. Wow, okay. Take aways 1.) he actually is some cocky teenage boy. That's almost never true when you stereotype, but, there ya go. 2.) He writes, according to him, for the internet arm of a lot of known "publications." How about that shit. Van Fair, I'd love to talk about your use of the term journalist in that post, but you were right, Sir. I guess anyone can write for content providers. That's the proof. Again, though, I'm not interested in that very basic conversation (and I'm not trying to mock Van Fair, who wrote a good post, just a topic I've heard for a decade now that I don't have interest in). Where do these people come from. Anyone know the kid's background, does he travel in any known circles, etc? I'm not even looking to trash him with the question (though it will probably end up that way). I'm legit trying to find out. I know he's a nonsense "writer" (he may or may not have a talent at that, but I'd bet he's a SME on Wrestling about as much as I'm an SME on Industrial design.)
  10. Johnny, to echo and further back up JML - I don't even give a shit about the list. I only skimmed it to begin with, saw some of the embarrassing writing, and started thinking more about Shoemaker, the fact the list guy wrote for SI.com, and the idea of credibility in not really journalism, but within a community. I wasn't being necessarily rhetorical. I legitimately want to know where this hipster writer came from, what his "cred" is to write about this subject at all, if he is paid for it, and what his motives might be. I don't personally have an ambition to "get his job" or put forth "I should make that money." I don't care about the money. I'm not ambitious in a financial sense, nor career-wise (as my life choices and strongly held opinions bare out). I hate the idea of "content providing" anyway, as most of it is contractual obligation to fill space. And that's a bug part of the problems I have. They are ideological. WHY does this even exist? There is a part of me that would respect this dude 10X more if I found out his bullshit, barely thought about, make-the-rent-money list was originally made for GWE. Even then I'd hate his list (and this time I'd focus on the list as I did for all of GWE and not that it exists in the first place), but at least I'd know it was done for a reason I respected. This guy might as well be a prostitute. He's just doing whatever for a check and acting like an authority. That annoys me. He could do any number of writing jobs in offices around the world where you don't have to have any credibility, and at the root of it I hate this idea that "Its just wrestling." If that's the case, I'd love to write sports stories/analysis for ESPN, or commentate on the election for cable TV or some "trusted" newspaper. I'd love to influence people who can't be bothered to do a moment of research or those without independent thought, and then when called on it either never acknowledge it, or say, "it's just (fill in the blank." If that's the case, why am I doing it, and why is anyone paying me, or paying attention in the first place?
  11. Who are these people/where do they get them?! I mean, not that I want everyone to come from some insular community, and there aren't TECHNICALLY credentials or gating systems to cred even in pro wrestling journalism, but - and this is me, not something written in stone - after 20 yrs online I think intelligent, non-bias people can generally agree to who is legit in that field. Some people don't like Mike Johnson for personal reasons, or because he has a problem with them, or vice versa, or some incident from years ago, because he works for Scherer, etc. However, I think a rational person can look at his work over a span of weeks/months/years and conclude he's legit as a reporter, even if they take issue with opinions he has or different things surrounding the reporting. Same with Jason Powell or Wade Keller. Same with Meltzer. I have tons of problems with Meltzer. I think his wrestling opinions sucks, I think he's often disingenuous, and our personalities/ideas of information transfer don't really mesh to a great degree. However, I would never take away his legit cred as a reporter and an opinion maker, even if I disagree with some things. I vote in the guys HOF, for Christ sake. Same goes for luminaries of opinion. From old school columnists and opinion makers like Bruce Mitchell and John Williams, and even someone I find completely irrelevant like Scott Keith (sorry PTBN, I love you guys), to newer people who broke through via this board, PTBN, or from the Observer family tree, at least they've built up a reputation through being around, detailing opinions, interacting with people and arguing those opinions. Hell, Alan4L seems like a lovely guy I'd totally hang out with. His wrestling opinions....I shake my head at 90% of what he says, but I can legitimately see what he likes, what are the things he holds strongly that he appreciates about the art, and I can go back and track his rise in the community and know he watched tons of stuff. I don't have to agree. He belongs. So how do people like David Shoemaker and this kid Luke Winkie exist? Where did they come from? what's their cred? It comes off as WWE childhood fans do "LOLWrestling" writing for money, and don't see anything wrong with that because they're never in a real space where they are challenged. After all, fucking Bill Simmons, who SUBSCRIBED to Meltzer for several years, proved himself to be a typical douche when he claimed "no one was doing this before you, right?" to Shoemaker, and David went along with that on a podcast. People like Shoemaker do this for money and to meet "WWE Superstars" because they're that type of person. Authenticity, craft, validity don't even come up with them, nor do they even care about being correct (Shoemaker wrote non-factual and incorrect content about Wade Keller, Bruce Mitchell, and Mike Johnson, among others - who you'd think he'd have respect for given his livelihood exists because of people like that. He was called on it by those people, and essentially blew them off. So where do these low brow opportunists come from? Do they lurk and figure out how to fake there way through/make agreements with uninterested content providers who just want to feed the waste of the world? Why does any of the exist, and how is this market not the domain of legit people? Is it exposure, cost, or both?
  12. Some questions, Sek: What is this about? Seems like Benoit stuff, but I don't want to presume its not part of a larger narrative. so....AKA - Where did this happen/take place, who is the woman, how are you "listening" to this? Ther basic info. Thanks EDIT: Nevermind. I'm not someone whop plays attention to or acknowledges Jericho's existence, so I didn't realize/remember he has a podcast, and the name was in the subject of your post (I glanced and thought it said that woman talked to Jericho, as a statement of fact. lol)
  13. Fascinating to see Dennis Coralluzo & Paul Heyman interact. and Meltzer's suspenders. Actually shocked the wrestlers allowed this to be filmed with Meltzer around.But then, you'd have to get a VHS copy sent somewhere at the time, so I guess they weren't to concerned.
  14. Wanted to sound as smart as Childs and Charles BEFORE they posted so it looked like they were agreeing w/ me. damn... I love the blog and last year's Match Guides. This is some fun stuff I'm slowly getting through too
  15. Sorrow - Truth. Chad - you too?! Let's watch something together. I'll make it up to you. We watched random WCW Sat night and some lucha together once....don't all leave me at once!!! lol
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