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#5814367 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 19 September 2017 - 08:39 AM in Pro Wrestling

Why are you fighting this fight in this thread? Stop. "Who cares what a homophobic asshole thinks?" does not equal "Homophobic assholes have no right to free speech."

 

Either way, this is a thread about Bobby Heenan's life and legacy, not speech and how we handle disagreement. Take it to feedback if you feel the need to continue this.

I see multiple people discussing here, I don't see just one person. So let's not try to scapegoat people here.

 

As I've been saying, if you give someone enough time, you will find something they don't agree with. It turns out that everyone is human and has flaws. Warrior has made some comments people don't like. Heenan took part in a group bullying and public shaming campaign. Two wrong's don't equal a right and in the end, everyone has flaws, but that's being human.




#5814365 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 19 September 2017 - 08:25 AM in Pro Wrestling

 

 

Warrior called Herman dishonest while mocking him for wearing a colostomy bag. Your opinion on someone's character means nothing if people don't believe you yourself are a person of good character. The personal nature of his comments completely invalidated any legit opinion he expressed.

Well I know for sure Heenan never mocked Warrior in any way, nor took any part in a DVD that solely meant to shame someone for cash, nor attacked the guy in his own interviews:

 

Are we saying that group bullying and public shaming is okay? Sounds to me like Heenan doesn't deserve the right to speak either.

 

This is what happens when you start trying to take down people you don't agree with. Eventually, the arrow will turn to you and it will be your turn to get taken down.

 

 

Free speech has consequences. Actions have consequences. The consequences of Warrior being unprofessional to Heenan lead to him being mocked. Heenan's consequence for the mocking was that Warrior had bad things to say about him even when no one else did.

 

The consequence of you pulling this particular shit in the Bobby Heenan RIP thread of all places is that I am going into my settings and putting you on my ignore list and that I am suggesting every single other person on this board does the same (up by your name, then Manage Ignore Pref). 

 

So you've got the right to speak. I've got the right not to listen. So does everyone else.

 

So what will be the consequences for Heenan then? He did take part in group shaming, harassment and group bullying for cash. Or are we just going to let that go? I'm all for rules and laws, but I expect them to apply equally to everyone. Heenan was no saint. Warrior was no saint. They were both just human like the rest of us.

 

It sounds to me like the rest of it is a "you problem". Again, keep trying to shun and silence people you don't agree with. You'll fall by your own sword in time, because not everyone will agree with you on everything.

 

I'm not going to be blocking you though. This is a discussion forum and if you can't handle people who think differently than you do, I don't know why you are here.




#5814360 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 19 September 2017 - 08:06 AM in Pro Wrestling

Warrior called Herman dishonest while mocking him for wearing a colostomy bag. Your opinion on someone's character means nothing if people don't believe you yourself are a person of good character. The personal nature of his comments completely invalidated any legit opinion he expressed.

Well I know for sure Heenan never mocked Warrior in any way, nor took any part in a DVD that solely meant to shame someone for cash, nor attacked the guy in his own interviews:

 

Are we saying that group bullying and public shaming is okay? Sounds to me like Heenan doesn't deserve the right to speak either.

 

This is what happens when you start trying to take down people you don't agree with. Eventually, the arrow will turn to you and it will be your turn to get taken down. If "he can't talk because he has views I don't agree with" is the standard, then in the end, no one will be able to talk if you want to be fair. It turns out that everyone is human, everyone says things that not everyone agrees with and everyone is eligible to be deemed offensive at times.




#5814359 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 19 September 2017 - 08:05 AM in Pro Wrestling

 

So because he has views you don't agree with he doesn't deserve the right to his freedom of speech?

 

This is one of the most tone-deaf things I've seen here, in the most inopportune moment. Know when to pick your battles.

 

I'm definitely going to pick the "people who don't agree with me have no right to speak" battle.




#5814358 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 19 September 2017 - 08:03 AM in Pro Wrestling


 

 

 

 

 

 

I've never read one negative comment about him personally.
 
 

Warrior didn't like him and said he was a trouble maker.
 
I know someone's gonna say "but it's the Ultimate Warrior", but I think the Warrior is a lot smarter than what people give him credit for. He got in, got big, stood up to Vince, got out of wrestling and got Vince to praise him in the end.
Ah, fuck Ultimate Warrior. Like anyone should care about what a Fucking homophobic dummy has to say.

 

So because he has views you don't agree with he doesn't deserve the right to his freedom of speech?

 

 

What a ridiculous strawman. No one said he had no right to his freedom of speech. Just that others have a right to not give a fuck about him and his opinions because of his views.

 

You can try to claim strawman all you want, but you are saying "because I don't agree with his views, his views mean nothing and he can't speak".

 

What you will eventually find out is that no one's going to agree with you on everything and you will soon be hanging from the same rope you want to hang others from.




#5814336 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 18 September 2017 - 11:38 PM in Pro Wrestling

 

 

I've never read one negative comment about him personally.
 
 

Warrior didn't like him and said he was a trouble maker.
 
I know someone's gonna say "but it's the Ultimate Warrior", but I think the Warrior is a lot smarter than what people give him credit for. He got in, got big, stood up to Vince, got out of wrestling and got Vince to praise him in the end.
Ah, fuck Ultimate Warrior. Like anyone should care about what a Fucking homophobic dummy has to say.

 

So because he has views you don't agree with he doesn't deserve the right to his freedom of speech?




#5814332 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 18 September 2017 - 10:33 PM in Pro Wrestling

I've never read one negative comment about him personally.

 

 

Warrior didn't like him and said he was a trouble maker.

 

I know someone's gonna say "but it's the Ultimate Warrior", but I think the Warrior is a lot smarter than what people give him credit for. He got in, got big, stood up to Vince, got out of wrestling and got Vince to praise him in the end.




#5814322 Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?

Posted by rzombie1988 on 18 September 2017 - 09:11 PM in Megathread archive

Cornette states on his podcast regularly (well before he joined up with GFW) that he has no desire to get his paperwork done to get into Canada because of how the border security treated him the last time he tried to come up here.

Yep. He's made it very clear he's never going back to Canada due to the incident last time and really, why should he? He can cut a promo from his living room and he only does limited appearances anyway.




#5814307 Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?

Posted by rzombie1988 on 18 September 2017 - 03:42 PM in Megathread archive

Impact is back and GFW is gone. Good thing we didn't change the thread lol




#5814197 Bobby Heenan RIP

Posted by rzombie1988 on 17 September 2017 - 05:31 PM in Pro Wrestling

What can you say. One of the best color commentators, managers and personalities of all-time. He created and perfected the heel color commentator role. He was in the main event of the most iconic wrestling show of all time and managed a whole roster of Hall of Famers. When you think wrestling manager, he's likely the first person to come up.

 

I always thought WWE and other promotions were incredibly stupid not to try and sign him and Gene after WCW had folded. I don't know what kind of role he could have played in the WWE Ruthless Aggression era, but if anyone could have figured it out, it would have been The Brain.

 

Losing him is very sad for wrestling and him having voice issues truly was one of wrestling's biggest losses. Bobby should have been out there with Cornette doing shows and sharing his wisdom with us for decades.




#5813523 Master List of All Pre-70s Footage

Posted by rzombie1988 on 09 September 2017 - 08:38 AM in Pro Wrestling

Gotch/Hackensmidt 2 is out there somewhere. It was released on film. But no one has found it.




#5813351 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 01:51 PM in Megathread archive

 To me it comes back to the double standard of him giving Hogan-Andre negative stars while they worked a perfect match for the stadium and fans there.

 

 

Andre/Hogan was actually GOOD. That's the worst part. The match made sense. Hogan tries to slam Andre and hurts his back. So Andre works the back before Hogan finally slams him to win. Real simple stuff.




#5813346 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 12:21 PM in Megathread archive

PWG in a different building just wouldn't feel like PWG. Their armory is part of the charm. Also I'm not sure I've ever seen people chalk up PWG drawing 400 people as impressive. It's never been the number of people, but the people it draws.

There's no lack of celebs in LA. There's tens of thousands and you know if a celeb wants to come, PWG's gonna bend over backwards to get them in. Everyone in LA sees celebs at some point. Now there's a lack of celebs in the middle of PA here or in Alabama and drawing celebs in those places would be impressive.




#5813344 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 12:05 PM in Megathread archive

I'm not even sure what you're getting at. They have always stuck to their plan even when they weren't hot.

I don't think drawing 400 people in LA is impressive. I think not being able to draw 400 people in LA is impressive, because it's such a massive place that is near other top 50 markets. In the middle of Pennsylvania, we can draw 400 people to a show no problem.

 

People like Dave really push how amazing it is that PWG can sell out 400 seats, but will completely ignore than the WNBA can draw 7,000 in LA, and that is the opposite of hot.




#5813342 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:59 AM in Megathread archive

That's because they run a venue that only holds 400 people. PWG has a very conservative business model. They run the same venue and sell their DVDs and blu-rays. They could easily sell out bigger venues in certain markets.

Maybe, maybe not. PWG would like us to think they can and many people are willing to buy that story, that's for sure. Shire drew triple that in LA/SF when his territory was closing and that wasn't even enough to be worthwhile back then with a lot less people.

 

I think not being able to sell out 400 seats in LA is more impressive than being able to.




#5813339 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:53 AM in Megathread archive

Wrestling also is seeing it's current acceptance because it got attached to the geek culture boom. So you're going to have to deal with the changes because you are drawing in a different fanbase than you were 10-15 years ago.

I think the fad will wear off in time. And 400 fans in the middle of LA(2nd biggest city in the US) 3-6 times a year really isn't anything special when the WNBA draws 7,000 a game there. In 1983, over 10 promotions just in the US drew 10,000 fans. Now maybe 4 in the world can do it.




#5813337 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:52 AM in Megathread archive

Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe in TNA was about as close as "MMA" as Tito Santana vs Greg Valentine. (which is actually a compliment, but the whole "MMA" deal in pro-wrestling has to go because it always comes back to the MMA gimmick being "this is real while the other shit is fake" break-the-fourth-wall nonsense)

I'm just making a comparison. They aren't no Andrei Kopolov or Nikolai Zouev.




#5813332 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:46 AM in Megathread archive

 

 

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does, 

 
Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.
 
NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlingstm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.
 
Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...
 
(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)

RoH tried the MMA thing with Richards and Edwards and literally everyone hated it.

 

It's Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards. I wouldn't like them if they were doing anything. Now Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe, I got into that.




#5813330 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:41 AM in Megathread archive

 

I also do think liberalizing pro wrestling is a good way to put it. People are calling for transgenders in wrestling. They want to see women facing men. Anyone can be a wrestler now instead of only a select group of people being let in. Critiquing anything about a wrestlers appearance is starting to be now a no no. WWE went PG and anti-bullying. People everyday are calling for a more "diverse" group of wrestlers, simply for the fact that they don't have enough of (insert race here) in wrestling or enough (insert race here) champions. More and more wrestlers are starting to be publicly shamed(JBL, now Sexy Star, etc) and we're seeing some attempts at blackballing. The MSM is starting to accept wrestling - GLOW on Netflix, Wrestling episodes are starting to become a TV trope, WWE getting covered by ESPN, Sports Illustrated loving Omega and places like Buzzfeed giving their 2 cents on the Sexy Star situation. There's some correlations to be made there.

 

 

And that's... bad ? Honest question here. All this seems absolutely positive to me. Pro-wrestling will never be what it was before, for better and worse. It evolves. And although some of the evolution I'm not always positive about (of course), all of this I'm perfectly happy with.

 

Some things are bad. If every wrestler who ever shot on someone or did something stupid in their personal life was blackballed, we'd have very few wrestlers left. No one liked WWE going PG except Mattel. I prefer wrestling being more restrictive about who gets let in. I don't want to see women vs men because it's not believable and due to the weight/size differences it could lead to more injuries(I don't care who you are, if you are 150lbs and try to catch a 250lb person, both of you get hurt). The transgender thing will never work in wrestling because it will create way too much drama and half the audience or more won't want to see it. Online bullying is never good, even if someone did something bad.




#5813325 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 11:01 AM in Megathread archive

 

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does, 

 

Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.

 

NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlingstm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.

 

Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...

 

(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)

 

UFC doesn't make me excited quite like K-1 and PRIDE did. K-1's still really good at least, but they don't really have the personalities. I agree that peak PRIDE/K-1 did wrestling better than wrestling did. I've never been able to get behind UFC guys except for the obvious ones like Silva or Rhonda.

 

I think if you haven't done something for so long it starts to become new again. It's been so long since we've seen a territory approach aside from NXT.  We been doing Japanese tributes for 15 years now and it's stale. I appreciate the attempts at increasing workrate, but not at the cost of heel/face dynamics, scrapping personalities/characters, long term storylines and people getting hurt. I've even gone as far to say that match quality doesn't even matter that match in reality.

 

I also do think liberalizing pro wrestling is a good way to put it. People are calling for transgenders in wrestling. They want to see women facing men. Anyone can be a wrestler now instead of only a select group of people being let in. Critiquing anything about a wrestlers appearance is starting to be now a no no. WWE went PG and anti-bullying. People everyday are calling for a more "diverse" group of wrestlers, simply for the fact that they don't have enough of (insert race here) in wrestling or enough (insert race here) champions. More and more wrestlers are starting to be publicly shamed(JBL, Sexy Star, Sasha Banks etc) and we're seeing some attempts at blackballing. The MSM is starting to accept wrestling - GLOW on Netflix, Wrestling episodes are starting to become a TV trope, WWE getting covered by ESPN, Sports Illustrated loving Omega and places like Buzzfeed giving their 2 cents on the Sexy Star situation. There's some correlations to be made there.




#5813320 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 10:08 AM in Megathread archive

I think Dave is just trying to always stay "ahead of the curve". i.e. evolutions to styles were almost always met with derision and Dave wants to make sure he's part of the "just wait, this stuff will be celebrated years later" crowd. I think there's something to that in change doesn't always mean "killing the business" and people who like PWG stuff shouldn't be told they're stupid or don't "get" wrestling. But I also think not all change is necessarily for the better. Sometimes angles or in ring work gets too meta as opposed to working face/heel dynamics or doing heated, personal feuds. Not to say that's always a bad thing, but I'd hate that to become the dominant force behind all matches.

 

I also think it's possible to find enjoyment out of everything and don't think it should always be an "us vs. them" scenario. I like Kenny Omega and think Jerry Lawler is one of the greatest wrestlers to have ever lived. I find the Young Bucks entertaining while the Holy Demon Army is my favorite tag team of all time.

 

I think a lot of people think Omega/PWG is ahead of the curve. To me it's going backwards, because it's been the standard in Japan and the various indy Japanese wannabe's. Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does, because it's been so long since anyone has done that.

 

I think the future of what the IWC likes sadly is going to be more of the Omega/PWG stuff. Less character work, more comedy, more blur between faces/heels, less keeping of kayfabe, more "anyone can be a wrestler" stuff, more of the liberalization of wrestling,  more dangerous moves and more athleticism over everything else.




#5813316 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 07 September 2017 - 09:08 AM in Megathread archive

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

 

This. Not to say there's anything wrong with disliking a particular style, but the whole "those fans" mentality is something I've always hated.

 

I think a lot of the fans who are into the current style are completely new to wrestling, so of course its amazing stuff. ECW was the most amazing thing to me when I had never seen anything but WWF and WCW. I thought the Eliminators were the best tag team ever. Obviously, 20 years later, none of that holds up and it's pretty easy to see why - ECW was mostly smoke and mirrors to cover up the holes, which is a lot of what the indy scene and people like Kenny Omega are doing now. If you told Kenny or some of the other highly pimped indy guys right now to work a match without going off the top or doing anything dangerous or actually sticking to face/heel dynamics, they wouldn't know what to do.

 

I think we're seeing the same thing now. The average person discussing wrestling online is now is in his mid-20's and has only been watching a few years or has only seen WWE. The only problem is that these people are shouting down the people who've already seen through the smoke and mirrors and treating them like idiots who don't know anything. Dave's adding fuel to the fire pretending that 1990's All Japan Women, 1990's WCW Cruiserweights, 2000's ROH and Dragon Gate with their more athletic styles and more dangerous moves never happened, when he's lived through it too. There's nothing new here.




#5813274 King Kong Bundy vs. One Man Gang

Posted by rzombie1988 on 06 September 2017 - 03:33 PM in The Microscope

I would say Gang was the better worker, but Bundy was the better personality.




#5813268 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 06 September 2017 - 03:18 PM in Megathread archive

I think the bigger surprise out of all of this is that Dave apparently hasn't seen any of the other Dijak/Lee matches. Considering that they had a spotlight match for EVOLVE during Wrestlemania weekend just 5 months ago, that's at least a little surprising. Does Dave really watch any American wrestling outside of WWE, PWG, and maybe ROH big shows? Does he even watch GFW?

If Dave does watch non-mainstream stuff, he rarely ever talks about it and therefore, no one bothers to see it except the people who are told by Davebros that they don't know anything about wrestling.

 

There's been some great workers who retired before Dave even reviewed a single match of theirs.




#5813230 Dave Meltzer stuff

Posted by rzombie1988 on 06 September 2017 - 11:00 AM in Megathread archive

 

 

...or what if I told you those people were also enjoying wrestling and wanting the best for it, but their idea of what's best is different? The whole concept of "anything I don't like is dumb and people who like what I don't are also dumb" is one of the more toxic things in wrestling fandom right now.

Promoting wrestling or any fighting sport on the promise of great matches and no storylines has never really drawn big mainstream interest. We know what does draw, and we saw that with Floyd/Conor, which did more than any wrestling show will in the next 10 years. Everyone knew that was going to suck too.

 

 

 

Well...

 

Dr. Wagner & Psycho Clown, airing on a slight delay, got a 22.8 rating in Mexico. McGregor & Maywether got a 19.9.

 

 

Now how much did Wagner/Clown make compared to Floyd and Connor? We know Wagner/Parka were selling their mask match for $100,000 a few years ago and we know Floyd is making around $300 million off Floyd/Connor.