Coffey Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Perhaps this should be its own topic, but I am of the perspective that from an in-ring standpoint Chris Jericho is as overrated if not more so than Lance Storm. For years I have heard and read people talk about how he's a great worker and I think somewhere along the way it just sort of became accepted as a fact due to it becoming the general consensus (at least in my mind). However going back lately and watching a lot of Jericho, to me his best stuff was all done via vignettes and promos, not in the ring. He's not bad, mind you. I would say pretty damn consistent and even has a lot of above average matches. But when looking at his whole body of work that I have seen, Japan, ECW, WCW & WWF, he's just not in that top echelon for me that a lot of others seem to place him in. Maybe it is a matter of having my expectations too high because of hype. As an example, I went back and watched him in the Super J Cup and he seems green and sloppy. I go back and watch him in WCW and he's pretty much just a comedy character (although he still did some good stuff with the likes of Mysterio, Malenko and those guys). In WWF, he was always carried by a Benoit-type character (in my opinion) and I think his best stuff was tags. The one big thing I remember was his WWF match with Rob Van Dam that he was so high on and then he flipped out when he went on-line and read that it wasn't as highly praised as he thought it should have been. Actually, as a collective can you guys compose a list of say, oh, five Chris Jericho matches that are must-see matches? Preferably singles bouts, not tags. I'll re-watch them as I'm willing to have my opinion be persuaded. CHRIS JERICHO RECOMMENDED MATCHES TO RE-WATCH: Chris Jericho Vs. Juventud Guerrera, WCW Superbrawl (2/22/98) Chris Jericho Vs. The Rock, WWF No Mercy (10/21/01) Chris Jericho Vs. Kane, WWF RAW (09/30/02) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I've been a little low on Jericho since I saw the KOTR 98 Match with Punk a couple of months ago and hated it. I'm almost afraid to go back and watch the 98 stuff I liked so much at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Punk and Jericho were in the 1998 KOTR? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Jericho is overrated for sure, and that's coming from someone who was a huge fan of his starting in WCW because I found his act so funny. But if you look at his career, he was *at best* decent before coming into the WWF, and probably not even that good. Where he's strong is that he's always had a really solid audience connection and has stayed consistently over for the past decade regardless of how he has been used. So I think it's possible to argue that Jericho was overrated and still argue that he deserved a bigger push at times without being contradictory. I think he's been a part of some really good-great matches for sure, but the self-importance of the last few runs has been a little weird. His whole tendency to fancy himself a "character" who creates "stories" feels pretentious and overly calculated sometimes, and all the reinventions can be overbearing. He's also one of the guys that started the trend of wrestlers presenting themselves as entertainers within a wrestling context, which is something that I hate. Miz doing promos about being more charismatic than his opponents is an offshoot of that, and almost always annoys me. Where I think he's at his strongest is in working long feuds with twists and turns that keep people interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Oh, the big Jericho match worth seeing is against The Rock at No Mercy in 2001. It's probably his finest performance, and one of the better matches from the company during those days. I also like the forgotten Smackdown tag around that time with him teaming with Rock against Austin and Angle, and his 2002 RAW match where he carried Kane to a solid 15 minute match was surprisingly strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Doesn't this come down to the fact that he's in an environment where he's one of about 5 guys who actually know how to work, has decent psychology etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Doesn't this come down to the fact that he's in an environment where he's one of about 5 guys who actually know how to work, has decent psychology etc? If you look at Coffey's post, he's more interested in discussing the whole of Jericho's career than looking at where he stands right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Punk and Jericho were in the 1998 KOTR? John Yeah, Terry Funk had to come out to work part of the match and.. Sorry 2008. I've been doing that all day. I sent out an e-mail with 2011 when I meant 2012. I'm just temporally challenged today. But it's a really terrible match. Not as bad as the Punk vs Benjamin match from ECW earlier in the year, but still bad. Seriously, one thing that always amazes me about Jericho looking back is just how protected he was early 98. He was one of the only guys in WCW who was going around kicking out of guys finishers as near falls in his matches. I remember this happening a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Actually, as a collective can you guys compose a list of say, oh, five Chris Jericho matches that are must-see matches? Preferably singles bouts, not tags. I'll re-watch them as I'm willing to have my opinion be persuaded.My favorite WCW Jericho match is the SuperBrawl one against Juventud Guerrera. There's some sloppiness, but there are also a lot of fun spots, and the ending stretch is really good. I also like his Halloween Havoc match with Raven and a January Nitro match with Booker T, neither of which I'd classify as "must-see," though. I pretty much agree with you that he's at his best getting his character over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Doesn't this come down to the fact that he's in an environment where he's one of about 5 guys who actually know how to work, has decent psychology etc? If you look at Coffey's post, he's more interested in discussing the whole of Jericho's career than looking at where he stands right now. Yeah I know, but I'm talking about his rep as a good worker and where it comes from. Was Jericho really thought of being great back in 98? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Work isn't letting me look at them, but ... Ask DEAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Heh, "Ric Flair should have retired after beating Vader in 1993. It's 1997. Do the math." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I wonder if DEAN still hates Meng "and then Meng- the biggest cancer on the colon of wrestling- came out so we could actually say it was a total turd." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Was Jericho really thought of being great back in 98?I would say so. While people were shitting on the likes of Goldberg and Kevin Nash, the people being praised were Guerrero, Benoit & Jericho. I have no issue with Benoit or Guerrero from an in-ring perspective, when looking at the whole body of work. Jericho though, I don't think he passes the test. To me, I don't know, I don't want to undersell him either, but I think he's "a good hand." I agree with Loss in his assessment here: But if you look at his career, he was *at best* decent before coming into the WWF, and probably not even that good. Where he's strong is that he's always had a really solid audience connection and has stayed consistently over for the past decade regardless of how he has been used. I'm sort of surprised that anyone agreed with me but this forum is pretty good about that. I don't think Jericho is bad, it's just that his name comes up whenever people talk about great workers and sometimes when even talking about the best workers and that's just ridiculous to me. If he was never even the best guy in his company in various companies throughout various years, how can he be in that conversation, ya know? Also, as far as matches are concerned from this thread so far: Chris Jericho Vs. Juventud Guerrera, WCW Superbrawl (2/22/98) Chris Jericho Vs. The Rock, WWF No Mercy (10/21/01) Chris Jericho Vs. Kane, WWF RAW (09/30/02) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 The Kane match was on 09/30/02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I wonder if DEAN still hates Meng "and then Meng- the biggest cancer on the colon of wrestling- came out so we could actually say it was a total turd." John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I do think a lot of fans overrate Jericho, but generally speaking I don't know that he's rated THAT highly in the ring. I always saw him as a "second tier" guy in comparison to your Eddy, Rey, Benoit and even Dean's at the time. He was different in that he was a character that could and did work the mic and felt distinct. But I never rated him on the level of those guys and have grown to like him less and less over the years. I actually know a lot of people who feel the same way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I was a fan of Jericho's schtick in 1998 and willed him to have success in the early part of his WWF career, but his jump ended up being a failure on so many levels that I soon lost interest. His early work is awful, especially his runs in CMLL. To me he always had problems with offence. It wouldn't surprise me if his cruiserweight stuff was his best work or possibly when he finally learnt to work WWF style. But yeah, not a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'll just say that I think people who say he was better in WCW are crazy. Maybe that has died down now but that was a big talking point on the net at the beginning part of the last decade and it used to drive me crazy. His WCW act was hilarious but I don't know how anyone could believe he wasn't a better overall performer once he hit the WWF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 God yes regarding Jericho being bad in CMLL. The Jericho match where he teamed with Ultimo against Dandy and Casas was terrible, and was built around making him look good. It was worked elimination style. Ultimo went down early and Jericho came back to beat both Dandy and Casas. So much talent trying to carry him and they couldn't seem to pull it off. I still say that is the only actively bad match I have ever seen involving Negro Casas, which is quite an accomplishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'll just say that I think people who say he was better in WCW are crazy. Maybe that has died down now but that was a big talking point on the net at the beginning part of the last decade and it used to drive me crazy. His WCW act was hilarious but I don't know how anyone could believe he wasn't a better overall performer once he hit the WWF "He was better in WCW!" sort of became a smark rallying cry to stick it to Vince for a while and I imagine that is the origin of that. Well that and their was a point where junior fetishism was so widespread online that it was automatically assumed that the guys in the "smaller" classes had to be better workers no matter what. There were guys who were better in WCW, but it's a term that often got tossed out and gets tossed out now for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual quality of performances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I'll just say that I think people who say he was better in WCW are crazy. Maybe that has died down now but that was a big talking point on the net at the beginning part of the last decade and it used to drive me crazy. His WCW act was hilarious but I don't know how anyone could believe he wasn't a better overall performer once he hit the WWF "He was better in WCW!" sort of became a smark rallying cry to stick it to Vince for a while and I imagine that is the origin of that. Well that and their was a point where junior fetishism was so widespread online that it was automatically assumed that the guys in the "smaller" classes had to be better workers no matter what. That was me in 2000 or so. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 For the most part I loved his stuff with Micheals during their feud. I remember loving both the matches and the angle. I'm a big Jericho fan, as for me it's the total package and the guy entertains me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Mann Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 My theory: People saw the potential in Jericho in 1998 to become one of the best ever and he was anointed that by some before it ever happened. And then it didn't happen: He was really, really good for a long time and great over stretches of his career, but he didn't have the sustained greatness in the ring or on promos that seemed possible in 1998. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 People who were missing Shawn Michaels in 1998-1999 expected him to ease into that role. I guess there are similarities between the two, but I think they may have been overblown. Jericho I do think was the natural choice to be the top star in the company when Austin and Rock left, and building him up more during the boom might have set him up for a nice run. He definitely had a special crowd connection. But it didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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