(Edit: I meant to put WON HOF 2010 in the title..)


Yohe posted the ballot on WC:

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES
The Assassins (Tom Renesto & Jody Hamilton)
Red Bastien
Cowboy Bob Ellis
Yukon Eric
Hans Schmidt
Kinji Shibuya
Wilbur Snyder
John Tolos
Enrique Torres
Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Gentleman Saul Weingeroff
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods
Bearcat Wright

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA
CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson
Carlos Colon
Edge
Owen Hart
Curt Hennig
Chris Jericho
Ivan Koloff
Fabulous Moolah
Pedro Morales
Dick Murdoch
Rey Mysterio
Rock & Roll Express
Sabu
Sgt. Slaughter
Jimmy Snuka
Sting
Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker)

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN
CANDIDATES
George Gordienko
Gran Hamada
Volk Han
Seiji Sakaguchi
Kensuke Sasaki
Kiyoshi Tamura
Steve Williams

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO
CANDIDATES
Perro Aguayo Jr.
Atlantis
Cibernetico
Cien Caras
Karloff Lagarde
Blue Panther
L.A. Park
Huracan Ramirez
Vampiro
Villano III
Dr. Wagner Jr.
Dr. Wagner Sr.

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE
CANDIDATES
Big Daddy
Henri DeGlane
Giant Haystacks
Horst Hoffman
Mick McManus
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Rollerball Mark Rocco
Johnny Saint

NON-WRESTLERS (these picks do not count against the ten wrestler maximum)
Lou Albano
Bill Apter
Jim Crockett Jr.
Gary Hart
Jerry Jarrett
Gorilla Monsoon
Dr. Alfonso Morales
Don Owen
Jesse Ventura
Kent Walton


Also a new guideline on the ballot:



I.E., I have to put Big Daddy on the ballot, but don't vote for him.

I'd think if Big Daddy gets overlooked again, Dave will never be able to go to those English UFC shows without being harassed.

Is it just a matter of him not "getting" British wrestling or does he not understand how a big fat guy could be his country's version of Hulk Hogan?


Also, these would be my picks:


1. The Assassins (do tag teams count as one pick?)
2. Carlos Colon
3. Rock n Roll Express
4. Sgt. Slaughter (gets overlooked, but there's a lot of footage of his peak available now)
5. Sting (he was WCW for a long time, the fact that WCW ended the way it did probably hurts him)
6. Steve Williams
7. Perro Aguyao Jr.
8. Cien Caras
9. Big Daddy
10. Johnny Saint


Non wrestlers:

1. Bill Apter (his magazines did more to promote wrestling than some promoters did)
2. Gorilla Monsoon (Dave seems to still be sour on him, but he seems to have left a huge impact on everyone he worked with)

George Gordienko? And in Japan? Huh?

I think Williams is likely to get in. Lots of good cases, for instance Sasaki has a WAY stronger case than Hase.

Rey Mysterio... Jr I assume since it's the US category. That's a no-brainer.

So after the controversy over the regional groupings this year, the ballot clearly groups them and encourages the voter to vote for regions he's followed. The new criteria is really weird and I can't help but feel like Dan's on the right track.

I feel like the two most similar wrestlers on the ballot this year are Jericho and Sting. Both have had nearly a decade of being near the top so long that it kind of gives the illusion that they were on top the entire time, both had short championship reigns that were considered disappointing at the time, both have a few impressive drawing numbers to their credit when paired with established draws, both are probably near the same level in the ring career versus career. I don't know where I stand on them just yet, but I feel like if one goes in, they both have to go in. If one stays out, they both have to stay out.

I know on the surface it seems like Sting had more years on top than Jericho, but take a look:

1988 vs 1999 - Both were very over new midcarders who flirted with the upper card, Sting far more so than Jericho.
1989 vs 2000 - Both were paired with a top guy in tag teams for much of the year and had good years. Both were in about the same position on the card, with the difference being that Sting was clearly being groomed for the top spot and no one really knew what they had planned for Jericho.
1990 vs 2001 - Both finally got their chance on top. Sting's run bombed, which I blame on the Black Scorpion angle more than Sting himself. Jericho was being set up to fail, but the initial work leading to the heel turn and the early part of the Rock program was strong.
1991 vs 2002 - Both stayed near the top of the card, but were ultimately removed from the top position. Jericho did more after dropping back to his old spot than Sting did.
1992 vs 2003 - Sting had the bigger year here and was the top babyface most of the time, but I would argue Jericho's importance to the company was strong in this year, as he was getting more TV time than anyone due to the Highlight Reel, was a positive ratings draw (which was unusual at that point for someone with so much TV time), and had some big feuds.
1993 vs 2004 - Sting was part of some big main events at the beginning of the year, but did nothing most of the year and everything in WCW was bad and not drawing. Jericho had some midcard feuds that really clicked and was the bottom of the pecking order babyface in main event tags on RAW more than anything else.
1995 vs 2004 - Sting dropped far down the card behind Hogan and Savage, while Jericho dropped far down the card below Benoit and Edge. Jericho had the better year because the Christian feud clicked and the tags and six-mans against Evolution on Raw were better than most of Sting's week-to-week stuff.
1996 vs 2005 - Both went on hiatus. Sting had the better storyline leading to his, Jericho had the better matches on the way out the door, but had a pretty rough patch earlier in the year.
1997 vs 2006 - Both were inactive. (Sting had two matches at the tail end of December which were kind of a big deal. Starrcade set records for WCW at the time, which is honestly the biggest positive Sting has.)
1998 vs 2007 - With Jericho out most of the year, Sting obviously has the advantage, but this was a disappointing year for him, as he was set up for something huge and instead just slowly slid down the card.
1999 vs 2008 - Jericho was the top heel in the promotion for the bulk of the year and had a successful feud with Michaels both in the ring and in PPV. Sting's comeback produced some fun matches.
2000 vs 2009 - Sting had a bad year in a bad company. Jericho had another great year with good feuds with retired wrestlers and Rey Misterio.

Rey Misterio is the shoe-in candidate that just isn't getting in with overwhelming numbers for some reason.

I would also vote in Jerry Jarrett for decades of successfully promoting wrestling.

Jim Crockett is an interesting case, as he had some successful years, but I tend to think they drew in 1986 because of the booking. If anything, they weren't able to sustain the momentum they had because Crockett wasn't great at promoting the NWA (and Dusty's booking taking a downturn didn't hurt things either).

I'm not trying to be contrarian when I say I don't get why everyone thinks Rey is a shoo-in. He did help usher in the era of crusierweight style wrestling in ECW, but he was never really a top star in WCW (most people still remember him being lawn darted by Kevin Nash more than anything else), and his time on top in WWE was more or less him taking Eddie's place than anything else. He's been a draw among Hispanic viewers, but is that HOF worthy? I guess you could say he sells a lot of merch to kids, but so does John Cena and I could just imagine the flip outs if people used that as justification for Cena in the HOF.

Well, I think John Cena is a HOF shoo-in also. He's just not old enough to be eligible yet, but he deserves to go in the first year he is eligible.

Rey has a strong enough case on work to get in. Anything more than that certainly adds to his case, but his list of great matches over nearly 20 years in a wide variety of settings alone is the reason he should be in the HOF.

He was a star in WCW and WWE pretty much to the limit of what politics would allow. Sells merchandise, consistently over across the globe and in every promotion, consistently good worker, and I'd say he has historical significance considering the way he MADE WCW's cruiser division. He's a ratings draw as much as anyone in WWE. It really seems obvious to me. I don't see, say, Jericho matching up with Rey.

It would probably be easier for him to get in if he'd spent a couple years dominating Mexico.

The WON HOF is endlessly frustrating.

There's also the arguments about him changing the lucha libre style that I've read Kevin Cook make before that I'm not informed enough to let be made again, but the way he always described it was that Rey's time in Mexico alone qualified him for the HOF. I see a guy who has had great matches everywhere. If he has history as an international draw, even better.

The only argument against Cena getting in on first ballot would be the old "he's still active and I won't vote for guys still in their prime" arguments that I've seen Yohe and others use.

In this era where the WWE is the "draw" and not any particular talent, the biggest way to gauge who is influencing the company and who is bringing in fans is to look at demographic trends and merch sales. Cena and Rey are probably 1 and 1a in terms of opening up new avenues of viewership and paving the way to a more "kid friendly" product. They are also probably 1 and 1a when it comes to merch sales. Both guys have had great runs in the ring, with Rey probably be the best in ring talent for the entire decade of the 00's and Cena having one of the more memorable "ace" runs in the last twenty years with his year plus long title reign a couple of years back. Both are hugely important from the perspective of acceptance with entertainment mainstream (Cena) and the recent strategy of relying heavily on the international market (Rey). Neither guy is Hogan, but neither guy is Dynamite Kid or Kurt Angle either. To me they are obvious - albeit not first tier - candidates.

That Jericho v. Sting comparison is interesting though I think Sting's year of not appearing int he ring is sort of slighted there since he appeared on multiple Nitros and the whole focus of many of the top rated and drawing shows of the year was "when will Sting show up?" Also I think Sting was a better in ring performer both career v. career and peak v. peak than Jericho. Largely irrelevant though because Jericho will go in as Dave actively campaigns for him every year.

He's one of the few guys in modern WWE that can be pointed to as a ratings and attendance draw. He sells a bunch of merch. WWE has taken over Mexico with him as the biggest star. They've done surprisingly well in small Southwestern towns with him on top. Has been in and out of the main event for four years. When you consider that some guys just get in based on work, Rey seems easy. Cena would be an easy HOF inductee even if he retired tomorrow.

I'm not doubting Rey didn't have good to great matches, I just thought there was more to it than that in terms of being considered HOF worthy. Doesn't it go by if the person was the top draw or was considered the best worker in the company they were in? I don't think you could ever say that about Rey in any company he was in.

Or is this more of a case of someone Dave wants in so the usual excuses when excluding someone don't apply?

Well to a lot of people, Rey is the best worker in WWE right now. Plus it's arguable that he was the best worker in AAA during the hot period of 93-95.

Um. There are several posts above yours where multiple people pointed to arguments for Rey where in ring work was one piece of a much broader picture.

Rey has been considered one of the top draws, if not the top draw, in what is easily the biggest wrestling company in the World. He's opened up Mexico to them and drastically expanded their international markets, while attracting a legion of Hispanic fans in the States - a demographic that is clearly expanding at a rapid rate. He sells shitloads of merch at a high price point which in this day and age is just as impressive as selling tickets to rednecks like myself was twenty-plus years ago. He's an established ratings and house show draw. He's been influential in a variety of ways. et, et, et

I also think Rey has pretty easily been the best wrestler in the WWE the last two years, to the point where I can't even see an argument for anyone else. And that's to say nothing of his 06 run where the only person in the company who might have been better was Finlay and he's much less of a WON HoF favorite than Rey is (incidentally I think Meltzer is a much bigger homer for Jericho than Rey, even though I think Jericho isn't nearly as strong a candidate).

I'd say Rey is pretty easily the best WWE wrestler of the 00's - at minimum. I'd also say he was the best in the World for that period but I could see an argument for Danielson, though I'm not sure anyone else has a case.

I've not seen much of his AAA run so I won't comment much on that, but he was clearly one of the best two or three guys in ECW during his cup of coffee there and during his entire tenure in WCW he was no worse than the fourth or fifth best guy in the company - in 96 (where I think a lot of his work is overrated actually) I doubt there was anyone in WCW better than him and that was a roster with Benoit, Eddy, Psicosis, Juvy, Malenko, et.

As far as the draw thing, didn't Smackdown's ratings stay basically the same after Rey got moved to Raw?

Also, again, I'm not saying Rey isn't a great worker. I am saying we can all come up with dozens of guys who were great workers yet are not considered HOF worthy.

There's also the matter of him being probably the worst booked champion WWE has had since Jericho was picking up dog poop for Steph.

15 posts in and no mention of Murdoch vs Edge yet, Im impressed.

No, the Hispanic audience crashed without him. It was a terrible move.

I dunno about that. AAA did a terrible job using a lot of the talent that jumped from CMLL and the UWA which would be the only way I'd see him make the top 20.

Not really. If a company had multiple guys who were strong draws/workers/positive influences, they get consideration, too. And there have definitely been points in the past decade where you could argue Rey was the strongest draw and definitely the strongest worker in WWE.

Are WON HOF voters given space for comments or is it just check-boxes?

They can comment but it doesn't affect anything as far as I know.

I'll have more thoughts later, but it's frustrating to consider guys like Jericho and Edge who are very much yet mid-career.

Thanks.

If there are comments, are they included in the HOF issue when talking about that particular person? Or does Dave do an issue in effect saying "These guys are in; here's a short bio of their careers?"

He does a capsule of the guys that make it, sometimes he gets a little more involved if they were from a long ago era or that guy who was basically the El Santo of Argentina.

He wasn't. I'm not sure anyone makes that argument.

John

Under which of these categories does Vince Verhei fall?

I would guess "writer" alongside such esteemed voters as Todd Martin, Dan Wahlers, and a bunch of people who write newspaper wrestling columns or are wrestling fans who happen to write for newspapers (like Houston Mitchell, and I have nothing against him but he clearly has a ballot because he's a legitimate sportswriter who happens to be a wrestling fan).

If he's considered a wrestler for the purpose of getting a ballot then I really want HOF voter "Hangman" Bruce Pobanz.

Does Babbysack vote?

The key difference between Sting and Jericho is a different career narrative, which the HOF voters aren't going to question much. Sting's narrative is largely "overpushed muscle man who never lived up to his potential, because he wasn't quite good enough", while Jericho's narrative is largely "ultra charismatic and talented all round performer held back by politics time and time again". Of course, at his peak Sting was hotter than Jericho ever was and got screwed worse at Starrcade '97 than he ever did, but that tends to be ignored because it doesn't fit the overarching narrative. Jericho's benefited a ton in the last couple of years from fitting the traditional Observer mold "Wrestler Of The Year", while the voters have ignored that the business has changed and the same template doesn't fit anymore. Sting's hurt a ton by his return being in a completely incompetent national promotion that no-one seriously pays attention to, so anything good he's done over the last 5 years will go completely ignored.

Just noticed Kent Walton, sweet. Isnt it his first time on the ballot?

I think so.

I'm amused by Steve Yohe's comments over at The OtherArena, where he admitted voting for Henri Deglane and Johnny Saint, while not knowing who Kent Walton was.

The Cook argument (as I remember ) wasn't that his time in Mexico changed Mexican wrestling.

Rather that Rey's time in the U.S. has changed international wrestling. That when you watch contemporary Japanese wrestling, Rey's influence is strong. For better or worse you souldn't be talking about lucha-resu anymore but rather Americanizedlucha ( a U.S. style with lucha roots that is far more Rey than Juvi based)-resu as predominant style. And his U.S. run has been really influential in Mexico as well. [Cook made all these arguments pre-Jamie Noble reteaches Shawn Michaels how to work a "contemporary" "epic" main event and I could see someone making the argument that what was contemporary was AJ as processed through Rey v Juve. I wouldn't make that argument at all but...]

I don't care for Mistico, Marafuji or Tanahashi so maybe not historical influence in a "positive manner". But that was the crux of Cook argument.

Honestly, for great in ring performer and historical influence on the mainstream contemporary style I'd really like to see Hamada go in.
Although part of me thinks that Steve Williams getting in is the only way we might finally get that bio.

Wait, what?

Noble teaching Michaels his reverse figure four among other things.

There was a point where Noble started working with Shawn to make him more contemporary and was Pat Pattersoning some of his matches.

Or, if they're Konnan, he lets them write their own bio where they were responsible for every good thing that ever happened to the world up to and including the polio vaccine.

I think it points to what was an obvious flaw in how Dave counts votes, and one several of us have pointed out in the past:

People who don't know much about a "region" are allowed to vote in it.

Steve would cop to not knowing much if anything about Euro wrestling.

He does:

* like the Johnny Saint he's watched over the years

* know what's generally known by US historians about Deglane

But neither of those are that much. Watching a Johnny Saint tape or two doesn't really give you a good understanding of where Saint fit into British wrestling. And I don't know if there's a really strong Deglane bio out there giving a good enough overview on him to make a final thumbs up/down choice on him.

That's not saying that Saint or Deglane aren't worthy of going in. But I'd prefer to here from the "historians" of British wrestling on Saint, and who warrants being infront of him in the line. If Saint is the #5 candidate, then we really should make sure we get most of the 1-4 guys in first.

Dave is letting people determine whether they're knowledgeable enough to vote in a region. And that's just nuts. Ross and Heyman and Gabe really don't know dick about Japan or Mexico or British wrestling where they should be voting in it (pretending for a second that they have ballots). But Dave is allowing them to vote in it if they see someon they feel like voting for.

Dave is the one handing out ballots. He must know something about the people he's giving ballots to, and what they're knowledgable about. He should be telling them what they qualify for.

John

At least he made the regional stuff (theoretically) more clear on this year's ballot. Last year was...awkward. I presume that the new layout means that we don't get any bizarre situations like some Marc Rocco votes being counted for him as a Japanese star.

I actually believe that what he's doing this year is the *exact* same thing he did in counting votes last year. He's just being open about how he categoriez wrestlers.

I don't think he counted any of Rocco's votes as "Japan". We went around in circles last year trying to figure out how he was counting, and the problem was Dave Speak: he wasn't being clear at all.

John

I looked over last year's threads and it sure seemed like he was saying any potential "dual region" candidates could work that way.

I think when dropping things into a spreadsheet, it was pretty clear that everyone fell into a specific category.

Quick thoughts on the candidates from a non-voter fan. I'm just hoping to start and stir discussion so please don't rip my head off.

Gene & Ole Anderson - The only tag teams in the WON Hall right now are the Road Warriors, the Freebirds, the Midnight Express and the Kangaroos. I just don't see the Andersons on that level. There are better teams who could go in first.

Carlos Colon - Gut reaction says no. Did he have a strong impact outside Puerto Rico?

Edge - No. I wouldn't dismiss him, but it's really too early to say.

Owen Hart - No. Despite the tragic death, really didn't have the body of work to merit induction.

Curt Hennig - No. Perhaps a strong candidate in some areas but his peak was awfully short.

Chris Jericho - Forced to say yes or no, I'd say yes. Jericho is a guy who ideally I'd wait a couple years on yet. You can always put him in later, but if you put him in prematurely you can't take him back.

Ivan Koloff - Tough call. Koloff could be anywhere from a non-Hall of Famer to perhaps the best candidate on this list. I'm thinking no but could be convinced otherwise.

Fabulous Moolah - I'd say yes on Moolah, which I know is controversial. My way of thinking is that she is a hugely influential trainer. A lot of people criticize her style of wrestling. It's not the most crowd pleasing. But with so many wrestlers who worked the Japanese style running into serious health problems, I can't fully criticize someone who trained a safer working style.

Pedro Morales - No.

Dick Murdoch - No. Not to dismiss Murdoch who was certainly a terrific wrestler. But he seems to me the kind of wrestler who defines the edge of the HOF line.

Rey Mysterio - Definite yes.

Rock & Roll Express - With the Midnight Express in, I wouldn't argue against the Rock 'n' Rolls.

Sabu - No. Influential and a hot act for a while, but his matches in retrospect haven't aged well at all. Beyond that, he was too much of a promotion jumper and never seemed to gain any solid momentum.

Sgt. Slaughter - I lean yes on Slaughter. Besides being a somewhat famous figure, he was a legitimately good worker in his prime and an underrated bump man even beyond his prime.

Jimmy Snuka - No. Very big star in 1982-84, but his value plummeted FAST.

Sting - Yes, and I'm biased. WCW in the mid to late 90s was a big deal. It seems to me that some of those guys from that promotion really should go in.

Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker) - No.

Why did Colon need to make an impact outside of Puerto Rico? I'm not saying he's a guy that absolutely has to be in, but I'd vote for him for sure. Too many good gates.

I'm confused on that as well. Why are luchadors judged only on Mexico, and guys like Big Daddy judged only on UK, but Colon gets faulted because he was only successful on his home island? Isn't his kind of longevity even more impressive considering he never went anywhere to come back to PR "refreshed".

I can go back and forth on Colon and he wouldn't be a bad entry. Maybe I was hasty on that one.

Not directing this at Al, but with the HOF voters in general, it seems the one big sticking point with Colon was that he helped cover up Brody's murder. Benoit was voted to stay in the HOF after committing a double homicide, so really, there's no longer an excuse to keep Colon out. He's a star belonging strictly to one territory, but I'm not sure that any single-territority star approaches his level of significance. One of the few who does is Lawler, who was inducted in the first class. Honestly, I don't see the argument that keeps him out at this point.

From the file marked "boy is Chris Jericho completely overrated as a Hall of Fame candidate today":

Also, LOL at Danielson ranking higher than Edge, not because I think Edge should make it (because I don't, fucker should be barely hanging onto the ballot) but because Dave has been pushing for Edge in the WON for much of the last year and so far he's received no traction whatsoever from his crew of fanboys, giving me hope he'll never be elected.