HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Gene & Ole Anderson
The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto)
Red Bastien
Pepper Gomez
Ray Gunkel
Dick Hutton
Hans Schmidt
Kinji Shibuya
Wilbur Snyder
John Tolos
Enrique Torres
Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff
Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
Batista
Edge
Owen Hart
Curt Hennig
Ivan Koloff
Fabulous Moolah
Pedro Morales
Dick Murdoch
Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)'
Sabu
Sgt. Slaughter
Jimmy Snuka
Sting
Mr. Wrestling II

JAPAN CANDIDATES
George Gordienko
Gran Hamada
Volk Han
Seiji Sakaguchi
Kensuke Sasaki
Kiyoshi Tamura
Steve "Dr. Death" Williams

MEXICO CANDIDATES
Perro Aguayo Jr.
Atlantis
Cien Caras
Karloff Lagarde
Blue Panther
L.A. Park
Huracan Ramirez
Vampiro
Villano III
Dr. Wagner Jr.

EUROPE CANDIDATES
Big Daddy
Henri DeGlane
Horst Hoffman
Mick McManus
Kendo Nagasaki
Jackie Pallo
Rollerball Mark Rocco
Johnny Saint

AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES
Spyros Arion
Carlos Colon
King Curtis Iaukea
Mark Lewin

NON-WRESTLERS
Lou Albano
Bill Apter
Jim Crockett Jr.
Gary Hart
Jerry Jarrett
Gorilla Monsoon
Dr. Alfonso Morales
Don Owen
Jesse Ventura
Kent Walton

More later, but why is Dave grouping Puerto Rico with Australiasia and Asian countries that Jim Barnett's promotion did tours of?

I suppose Dave feels PR is important enough to be separated from America or Mexico as being its own thing, but not nearly important enough to have a category of its own. So it gets thrown into the catch-all Miscellaneous group.

Yeah... what Jingus says: it comes across as a Junk Drawer grouping.

I'd also think there's more to Lewin's career than being tossed in Aussie/Pacific. Is that really 50%+ of his candidacy for the HOF?

John

With Lewin I guess that depends on how much you value the team with Don Curtis, right? I mean I believe he did well but he's not HOF level for his later US runs.

Lewin and Curtis are guys who you always hear about working Hong Kong, Singapore, etc, but never with any details. Is there close to enough information about anything outside of Barnett's WCW to make an educated decision? If we're largely basing it on WCW Australia, is there any reason not to vote for any of the guys on the ballot for that region? Plus, why isn't Mario Milano on the ballot? He's a huge omission with that new region.

Colon/PR makes no sense in this context, WWC is/was a US territory.

Does all the fake Huracan Ramirez's in the early 2000's hurt the nominees chances? Seems like there were at least a dozen version of the Original.

We really need to start a PWO HOF bad.

If I had a ballot I'd abstain form Mexico and Historical Categories (though I do think Schmidt and Shibuya should be in).

I'd definitely vote for the RnR's, Koloff, Colon, Big Daddy, Morales, Hamada and Han. On the fence on Murdoch, McManus and Pallo.

Non-wrestlers I'd definitely vote for Owen, Walton and Apter. Could be convinced on all of them other then Jesse and probably Monsoon.

Oh, and I'd write in Buddy Rose

And my first nominees would be Dick Murdoch and Buddy Rose.

A lot of these guys are tough calls. Off the top of my head my choices would consist of Hans Schmidt, Ivan Koloff, Sting, the Fabulous Moolah, the Rock 'n' Roll Express, Sgt. Slaughter, Dr. Wagner Jr., Mr. Wrestling II, Carlos Colon, Lou Albano and Gorilla Monsoon. Others I'd strongly consider include Steve Williams, Big Daddy, Red Bastien, Jim Crockett. Schmidt is the best candidate on the ballot IMO.

I would personally really like to see Atlantis go in, and hopefully Steve Sims would do the biography for him if he does get inducted. He was a legitimate draw for years and was one of the most recognizable luchadores for decades (with an iconic mask). Obviously he was an excellent worker, and I still feel he's Blue Panther's best working partner. Some of his matwork against Blue Panther in 1991 and 1997 is amongst the best matwork ever.

God... please... no.

John

You get the feeling that Dave doesn't understand that PR is a US territory in the Caribean Sea (i.e. part of the Atlantic Ocean) rather than over in the Pacific... or anywhere near the Aussies? Did he confuse it with Guam?

John

My toughest choice every year is if there's not a Japanese candidate that I think is worthy, to pick at least one to make sure Sakaguchi doesn't get in.

Volk Han is my usual safe choice, and it makes Yohe happy that someone else votes for him.

I'm not enthused about any of the Modern Wrestlers.

BTW - Edge on the ballot means that Dave is still going with the 35 year old rule? I didn't think he had 15 years in the Bigs. He didn't debut in the WWF until 1998, and I seem to recall that Dave ignored all of Rey Jr.'s wrestling before he made his big time debut.

John

Based solely on finishing Gary Hart's book literally 10 minutes ago, I think I could make a pretty good case for his inclusion: Manager for countless main event, money-drawing talents in various promotions from the 60s through the 80s. Memorable and entertaining character. Successful booker in Georgia and (mostly) Texas for several years. Responsible for developing many wrestlers into main eventers and coming up with/being involved in many memorable angles that drew money. Successful TV producer...

I'm no expert on his work. I only know of him from YouTube, a few tapes here and there, and the old Apter mags, as he was not part of the TV wrestling I watched in Calgary as a kid during the 80s, and was pretty much gone from the scene by 1990. But from what I have seen I think he was an exceptional promo guy and excellent at getting over characters and feuds. I'm actually kind of surprised he's not already in, but I guess the strikes against him are not having a run in some major areas, like New York, St. Louis, etc, being gone from the scene for so long, and usually being only a manager in the areas he did work. However, just to use an example, and not to rile anybody up because I'm a fan of the guy, but if someone like Heyman is in, I think Hart (who I would say was more successful than Heyman, but not as influential) should also be in.

Thoughts?

I know this is restarting ancient arguments, but I never got a good answer last time: what would be the rationale for voting for a guy like Big Daddy, but not Jesse Ventura? The knock on the latter seems to always be that the voter didn't think Jesse was very good at his job, but it's hard to look at any Big Daddy match ever and find it even remotely tolerable. Certainly the Body had a much larger fanbase, is much more famous worldwide, and had an exponentially larger historical impact on the wrestling business as a whole.

On Gary Hart, I seem to recall that when his book came out that he took a lot of credit for things in WCCW that weren't really things he should get credit for. That in turn called into question some of the other things he took credit for outside of WCCW. It was less that "Gary was a big fat liar", but that the book stretched his impact too much.

John

I don't recall anything in the book about his booking of Dallas that seemed suspect.

The obvious exaggerations are generally about payoffs (after a certain point, that is: he comes off completely honest about money before his Georgia run with Kabuki). Besides that I've heard that stuff like claiming the "Fritz is from Texas and Waldo is a Canadian who isn't his brother" expose was an ad lib to be stretching the truth, but that's about it.

Whatever argument there is for Big Daddy is off-set by him being a fucking joke, and suitably remembered as such. I've never heard a single person reminisce about WoS without talking about how much of a shitty embarassment he was. I'd love to see the ratings/attendance breakdown that shows he (rather than Joint Promotions) was actually a significant draw compared to other guys.

I've only seen a handfull of his matches but in every one I watched he was crazy over and massively loved by most of the audiance.

From most acounts i've heard from people that worked with him he was a jerk backstage and he cleary wasn't any good from a technical/skill point of view but you can't really deny he was still a really big deal regardless.

Of the people I actually know enough about to comment on i'd vote for any of the following

R&R, Sting, Hamada, Williams, Atlantis, Wagner Jr, Saint, Bill Apter & Jerry Jarrett

My point is, every positive thing that you can point to as a reason to vote for Big Daddy is something that shores up Ventura's case as well. (Aside from promoting, anyway, and then you run into Gorilla Monsoon comparisons.) Jesse The Body is so ridiculously famous and so influential in his role as a color commentator, I don't understand how he's not a slam dunk when voting for him in a non-wrestling category. Practically every heel announcer owes a lot of their shtick to Ventura, who got very well known in that role before Bobby Heenan did.

I can't deny that, but unless that's your sole criteria ('being a star'), I don't see the argument.

Was the product taking a downturn before he came along and rejuvenated it?

Did the ratings spike when he was on, or were they moreorless the same regardless of who appeared? Is there a breakdown that shows he was more important a draw than McManus, Kendo Nagasaki, Jackie Pallo/etc before them, or even Rocco/Marty/Johnny Saint etc?

Where the shows he worked on notably bigger gates than those he wasn't?

His legacy is as a joke (I mean, a complete and total joke). He didn't elevate a single person from being paired with him. He's in the absolute lowest percentile of workers I've ever seen.

Being an asshole is a non-factor; if he had Eaton's reputation as a nice guy it wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference: he was the (insert a thousand superlatives) shits.

Mick McManus has most of Daddy's fame--he wasn't as famous at his peak as Daddy was at his, but he was nonetheless a 100% mainstream celebrity in Great Britain--without the in-ring baggage. Indications are that he was a very strong worker in the style, considering what's available is when he was well past his prime and he's still looking good. Throw in some supposedly big audiences on FA Cup Final Day--I don't know how would one would go about verifying that--and his front-office work in the late '70s and I don't see much of an argument against him.

McManus would seemingly satisfy the lack of WOS workers in the Hall without being as divisive as Daddy.

Personally, I can't see how someone could vote for Saint and not include Daddy and certainly Kent Walton. Although the belief from some in the UK that I've read is that Saint would do well this year based solely on his recent US exposure.

I don't know much about McManus, but I remember a couple of years ago there was a program on ITV called That's What I Call Television (hosted by Fern Britton and Bradley Walsh) where they had a feature on the old World of Sport wrestling, and the person they had as their guest to talk about it was McManus (this show airing some 20 years after ITV cancelled wrestling, and guessing a good 30/40 years after McManus' prime). Whilst not as well known as Daddy, for a certain generation as Pete says, he was an absolute mainstream name (my parents who had little interesting in wrestling) were both fully aware of him and would bring him up when I would watch the ITV wrestling as a kid.

Saint's really a much bigger deal with us tape-watchers than he ever was during his in-ring prime. With a few exceptions like Daddy and McManus and Kendo it's hard to see anyone in British wrestling as a "draw" in the traditional sense just because of the nature of the business, but Saint wasn't really a guy who held lots of titles or was positioned as a top player. If you're one to really emphasize ringwork for the HOF then I could see it, but that's really his only case.

But then if you are only to base your criteria for entry on ringwork (which I think is the primary reason for Saint) then you need to include contemporaries such as Jim Breaks, Steve Grey etc. However, those guys are clearly hurt by the lack of exposure that they have had in comparison to Saint.

Alan4L has a ballot for the WON HOF. Can't wait for the first Dragon Gate wrestler to get on to the eligible list.

The original class should be eligible next year so I wouldn't be shocked to see CIMA on the ballot at least.

I know he may have the wrong opinionz from some on here but he has watched more (old) wrestling than even he lets on online. Yes we are e-buddies but regardless of that Ive never known to have a glaring lack of knowledge on wrestling.

I could have sworn that he downplayed the role of Mantell to the point that it came across that Gary was responsible to the Boom.

John

Not exactly.

Gary booked the territory from about 1976 to early '83. The early signs of a boom (first Reunion Arena Kerry-Flair match) were under him, he brought the Freebirds in (including coaxing Buddy out of retirement so they had three Freebirds to face three Von Erichs), and he booked the big Christmas night show. They did big business the following week based on the word of mouth about the turn. Fritz shorted Gary on their agreed-upon bonus for a percentage of how much houses went up over average in each town (with the Reunion Arena shows counting as "a town" to be fair), so Gary quit and Kabuki went with him to Charlotte.

He felt that with how hot he had gotten the territory, it wasn't hard for Mantell to step in. He didn't like Mantell for a variety of reasons. Hart didn't think he could book well (outside of Jimmy Garvin's gimmick with Sunshine and then Precious), felt that he mismanaged the locker room and the shows (letting guys work high and letting the Sportatorium tapings run so late with long gaps, causing fans to miss the bus), felt he was inexperienced for the role (he hadn't booked anywhere else or served as a booking assistant), overlooked good talent (like not pushing the Midnight Express harder), etc. Plus there were the issues of Mantell jumping to the UWF and taking much of the crew with him as well as Mantell arranging for Missing Link to attack Hart in the locker room.

Cornette's account of what working in Dallas was like backs up at least some of this, IMO. Your mileage may vary.

So essentially, it boils down to the personal animosity combined with Gary feeling that he got the territory hot enough that anyone could've booked Freebirds vs Von Erichs from that point on and drawn well.

But what qualifies him as an expert compared to people on this board? He traffics mostly in opinions on recent Japanese wrestling, which is fine. But do we have any evidence that he has nuanced opinions on Dick Murdoch or Gran Hamada or Volk Han? He just seems like a "friend of the WON" voter, which, again, is fine but for the fact that Dave tries to portay his HOF as something definitive.

It's not even worth worrying about after finding out a few years ago that Wahlers has a ballot.

I'd have to go back and look at how Dave wrote it up, but I think the "taking credit for launching Birds vs VE's" was an item where Dave thought Gary was taking way too much credit. Perhaps my recollection is off, but I thought Dave contested Gary's claims on the he was behind that to the degree that Gary claimed he was.

John

I really dont want for this too get bitchy or trollish just so take what I am saying for what is worth. Of course ultimately it is up to Alan and Dave to explain themselves. I also acknowledge the things I say below may or may not rule in the majority of this forum too.

I think the heat if there is any heat it should be put on Dave not Alan as Dave obviously is the one who selects people. Would any of you say no if Dave asked you even out of vanity?

Dave does need to find young people to replace older voters & dropouts. The way wrestling is being discussed and reported has changed it is more bloggy and forumy instead of newsletters & fanzines. The WON HOF should embrace nu-media era voters kind of like Fighting Spirit Magazine has having articles written by Naylor, Schneider etc alongside the John Listers of the world.

I think Alan should be given a bit more credit than some people here and on related websites. He does watch more wrestling than the vast majority of people. Not just Dragon Gate or the Indies either.

If this counts for anything he does write for Fighting Spirit Magazine regularly. It is something that Dave can use to justify Alan as a "reporter."

The main reason I support Alan having a ballot as he has demonstrated that he does "do his homework" for example doing the Best of 2000s project with Ditch on DVDR. Out of any of the "friend of the WON" voters if you want to lump him in that category he is the one that I trust that will enthusiastically research those he isnt totally familiar with and ultimately "get it right" if he doesn't have it right already that is. A trait I dont think is that common among WON HOF voters.

All that said it is a fucking disgrace that Kris Z doesnt have a ballot and was jumped in the queue by Alan. I thought he had one as he certainly has the knowledge and is on Dave's radar.



There is that....

I am in no way claiming that there is an objective or logical selective process for potential voters btw.

Kurt Angle is in the WON HoF.

The End

Wait... Kris doesn't have a ballot?

Someone send me Kris e-mail via PM. I don't see it on Kris' fb page. I'm more than happy to talk to Dave...

John

Yeah, I wasn't really trying to rip on Alan, who certainly puts in a ton of effort, even if his tastes strike me as loony. Hell, I'd rather he have a ballot than Alvarez. It just struck me as another indication of how arbitray Dave is in handing out votes.

Ive no real issue with that POV at all.

Word.

Michael Hayes has gone on record saying that Gary Hart was the lynchpin for the boom of World Class and Ken Mantell was the guy who came in behind him.

To give a sports analogy, Gary was Tommy Prothro to Mantell's Chuck Knox & Don Coryell

Also regarding me and not having a vote....it is what it is....

Nice reference. I like to think I know a thing or two about NFL history, but I admit I had to google Prothro's name. I guess if I had been a fan during those years I would have recognized the name. Maybe like a modern fan not knowing who Buddy Ryan or Jerry Glanville were? Hart's own NFL head coach comparison in the book was he was Jimmy Johnson to Mantell's Barry Switzer. I think I could agree with the Switzer/Mantell part, but I'm not sure if Hart's booking run in Dallas was the equivalent of 2 Super Bowl wins. But me discussing Hart's merits is like me trying to discuss the merits of someone like Coryell, they were before my time as a fan.

Anyway, back to wrestling...

Well my voting status has changed so that "controversy" is over.

Thanks to those were part of it.

Don't forget to write-in Buddy Rose

Wow, this thread was actually productive.

The arguments for them are tired, but Sting, Colon, Jarrett, Apter, Ventura and Don Owen need to be in

If fn Edge or Batista go in b4 Sting......

Good news on the Kris front.




He should give this forum a vote on his ballot in return.

How does one become "eligible" to vote?