I bet he has friends who did it.

When reading this quote it reminds me of the survey done a few months back that surprisingly showed that pro wrestling fans are fans of more sports than MMA fans are. Should we toss on the ballot great American sports heels like Kobe Bryant, A-Rod and Michael Vick?

Outside of the SummerSlam 2002 buyrate, Lesnar was really a bust as a draw as a professional wrestler. He was on top as WWE's business significantly contracted and was an expensive flop for New Japan. Based on his professional wrestler career, he's a horrible candidate.

But you can't seriously expect a Pro Wrestling Hall Of Fame voted on predominantly by former and current pro wrestlers, and people whose views are heavily influenced by them, not to induct Lesnar. Lesnar will get in for the same reason that Angle got in and tomk has articulated so well in the past - pro wrestlers even today are legitimacy marks. Lesnar being in their Hall Of Fame legitimises them as real athletes and real life tough guys. When Lesnar left the business at WrestleMania XX in the manner that he did, he was despised by many of his jealous co-workers for walking out on the company and not appreciating the mega push that was handed to him on a silver platter, but when he won the UFC Heavyweight title many of those former enemies were publicly patting him on the back for a job well done, because it reflected well on their profession.

Exactly. Also, if we accept this statement as true, did Lesnar really draw more pro wrestling fans during that period than Cena? Sure, Lesnar headlined huge drawing shows, but only 6 in total over those years. Cena must have been the main draw (sorry, it's not just the brand, despite what Vince wants everyone to believe) for what, 25-30 PPV shows, at least, over that same stretch? Yes, they did not draw the monster numbers of the UFC shows (though the Mania's did), but even if Lesnar averaged 1 million buys for the 6 to total 6 million fans, and we assumed ALL of those fans were also pro wrestling fans (obviously not), a Cena average of, for example, 250,000 over 25 shows = 6.25 million fans (ALL pro wrestling fans). The Cena number is also being conservative. And, of course, this doesn't take into account the fans Cena drew to house shows over those years. Any way you look at it, there is NO WAY Lesnar drew more pro wrestling fans.

I think Meltzer and others are so desperate to push through the whole MMA=Pro Wrestling agenda they have become totally delusional.

Isn't there no limit to the number of names people can choose? Same with WON HOF.

Didnt Phil or Dylan or someone do a Money Mayweather Gordy list on DVDR once?

Let's update that as this is what it has come to.

Heck when is Sonnen going on the ballot.

There is a limit. Ten performers. Non-performers are unlimited.

Oh for fuck's sake.



Who gives a shit. Brock is drawing fans to MMA. Not to pro wrestling. Re-open an MMA HOF if you give a rats ass about what's drawing in MMA.




No.




Horse shit. You're pimping him with what you wrote here. That pimping is the #1 driver of HOF candidates, and always has been.

John

It's a shame there isn't a central local for serious HoF talk over the course of the year. Not saying it could offset Dave's pimping but at least the other side could get a hearing with a broader portion of the voting base

It was attempted at WC. It failed, largely because Dave ran away from discussions that had critical thinking about his views. But also because the HOF is so flooded with voters that the only common link is:

"They read the WON"

On some level. You're never going to have a central discussion place with those voters since they aren't going to read blogs/boards/massive discussion threads. Ain't happening.

John

I think the best place for him to post some of this nonsense is the F4W board, because I'd have to think that an extremely low percentage of HOF voters actually read what he writes over there (unless it is dragged elsewhere, like here). He's largely kept his feelings about the nominees out of the WON in recent years, so it's possible few people even know his opinions on Edge or Lesnar at this point.

His opinions about nominees are in the WON every year:







I'd have to pull over even more for Torres, but it's easy to see what he thinks.

Batista drawing more money than anyone on the ballot...

There's a lot of shit there which is clearly Dave's opinion on candidates. That's even before we get to historical pieces like the recent one on drawing.

John

Wait. Dave thinks Albano is the strongest candidate on the ballot????? Does that not strike EVERYONE as a major "WTF?"

We've talked about that in the past. Tom has gone around in circle on the Big 3 / Albano The Anchor concept.

John

No...they watched via a stream

Yeah I went around looking for help on that and didn't get much outside of bert on classics. Assuming the information he provided was correct from 1970 to Backlund winning title results taken from Cawthorne's site.



Or whatever the quote is.

I will color the shows where I don't know who managed in red.

For 1970, we have 8 MSGs listed from this period. Sammartino wrestles in singles matches in 7 of them.
We know that Albano started managing with Crusher Verdu. Of those shows we only know that Albano managed two. I don't know who was managing before. Bobby Shane? I really know little about 70s WWWF, outside what I was told by Philly kitchen staff I used to work with. We would go to ECW shows together, where they'd tell me how much Tommy Dreamer was real like Bruno.

1970 Albano manages minimum of two singles challenges to world title



1971.
We Have 10 MSGs from 71.
Koloff beats Sammartino. Morales Beats Koloff.
Uncertain about who manages on 3 shows
Albano manages heels in at minimum 6 singles matches with World champ, one tag match with world champ.




1972
12 MSGs listed.
I have very little info on 1972.
Albano manages heel in at least three singles matches with world champ.



1973
Stasiak beats Morales, Sammartino beats Stasiak. The Grand Wizard shows up, again we have too little information
11 MSG's listed
Grand Wizard manages heels in singles matches with world champ at minimum 5 times
Don't know anything about Albano during this year



1974
We have 11 MSG's listed
The Grand Wizard manages the heel in singles matches with world champion 5 times
Blassie manages heel in singles matches with world champion 2 times
Albano manages heels in 0 known singles matches with world champ.
Albano manages heel tag team in match with world champ 2 times.
I assume team of Blassie and Volkoff didn't have a manager but I'm not going to add it to Blassies total.



1975
We have 12 MSGs listed
The Wizard is nowhere to be seen in the world title picture
Blassie manages heels in 5 singles matches with world champ
Albano manages heels in 5 singles matches with world champ, manages heels in 1 tag match with world champ and is in 1 handicap match with world champ

Verdu was the first guy that Albano managed so we'll go from there.



All Albano guys.

1971.



1972



1973



1974 was the true beginning of the 3 Wise Men movement so Albano got shifted to more tag teams.

I had too many windows open and got confused so

1976
12 MSGs listed
Grand Wizard manages heels in six singles matches with world champ and splits managerial duty with Albano for one tag match
Blassie manages heels in three singles matches with world champ ( well he should've except the time Putski had to sit in for world champ)
Albano manages heels in one singles match with world champ and splits managerial duty with Grand Wizard for one tag match with world champ


1977
13 MSGs
Billy Graham becomes champ
Albano manages heels in 3 singles matches with world champ
Blassie manages heel in 2 singles matches with world champ
Wizard manages heel in 8 singles matches with world champion



1978
I only asked about 78 till Backlund win
So that's three shows, of course that's all Grand Wizard

I should have been more clear. Whereas in the past, Dave would go through each candidate one by one and list their positives and their negatives (and would also list his ballot), he doesn't do that anymore. There wasn't anything in the WON this year pushing strongly for Edge, for instance, but there was on the Board.

Thanks a bunch Kris, I really couldn't find enough info on 70-73 period.

So adding Kris's stuff

1970
8 MSG's with Albano managing heel in match with champ 6/8

1971
Albano manages heel in at minimum 8/10 matches with champ

1972
Albano manages heel in at minimum 7/12

1973
Albano manages heel in at minimum 3/11
Grand Wizard manages heel in at minimum 5/11

1974

Albano manages heel in 2/11
Blassie manages heel in 3/11
Wizard manages heel in 5/11

1975
Blassie manages heel in 5/12
Albano manages heel in 7/12

1976
Albano manages heel in 1.5/12
Blassie manages heel in 3/12
Wizard manages heel in 6.5/12

1977
Blassie manages heel in 2/13
Albano manages heel in 3/13
Wizard manages heel in 8/13

This is less intersting to me now than it was a year ago. Last year Meltzer was arguing that Albano "carried the heel side of the WWWF/WWF" for over a decade. That seemed like a ridiculous claim.

"One of the lynchpins" feels like a lesser claim.

Jiimy Hart "carried" the heel side in Memphis, Don Bass was one of the lynchpins.
Gereal Skandor Akbar carried the heel side in midsouth for almost a decade, Grizzly Smith was one of the lynchpins.

Also saw Cyndi Lauper live last year and she sang "Goonies R good enough" so I have positive vibes from that.

Still since Albano's a lynchpin from 70-85, John and Kris, do you think you can do the Backlund era?

If they can induct tag teams, why can't they induct the "Three Wise Men of the East" as a unit.

Well, because they weren't a unit for 1. Just 3 guys who all worked for the same company and all 3 with very diffrent careers.

Blassie's allready in anyways, 1st class in 96.

Not in a kayfabe sense, sure, but in a functional sense.

When it came to the 3 Wise Men though Albano had way more heat than anyone else because of his character. Watch the old TV and there was hatred for Albano.

Am I missing something or is Jimmy Hart not in the HoF?

Wow... someone needs to look back at the original 1996 issue to check that. I could swear that he was in. That's... pretty odd.

No Jimmy in HOF.

Is it possible that no one has noticed this before? I mean...he's never even been on the ballot?? Is it possible Dave doesn't think Jimmy belongs? Personally I have a really hard time accepting ANY manager over Jimmy with the exception of Heenan.

Maybe the bad timing of Jimmy being involved in a less than spectacular babyface run with Hogan just before the first class was put together, and the general malaise of his career from about 91/92 onwards, contributed to him being overlooked. I know his late-WWF/ WCW run made me forget about his glory days for a long time.

Jimmy in Memphis is wildly different than Jimmy anywhere else, but even then, the theme input in WCW (Self High Five made DDP as much as the Diamond Cutter) and awesome running of WCW SN towards the end just should add to his accolades.

I think it is also ironic/interesting that Cornette, the "B" Memphis manager, is in the HOF, and the RnR's, the "B" Memphis babyface tag team, will likely get in, while the "A" manager (Hart) and "A" babyface tag team (Fabs) are not in the HOF and may never get in. I'm not sure how it would work with the Fabs since Lane is already in, or if they even had a HOF run together, despite being very influential.

The Fabs will never even be put on the ballot because Lane is already in.

I think there is virtually no way Jimmy gets in now unless it's by fiat and I think that highly unlikely.

Rather than bog this thread down with more Blackwell-like research projects I'm going to start separate threads for guys over the course of the next few months. I'm working on a similar results analysis for Ken Patera right now. I'm going to try and do the same for Buddy as well with him making the ballot, but the lack of Portland attendance figures makes it tough.

Just a random late-night observation, but it almost seems like there is some sort of HOF bias against a lot of wrestlers who did well in the 1977-1984 period, but whose careers dropped off after that point, like Rose, Blackwell, and Patera. You could also add Mr.Wrestling II, Tommy Rich, Sgt. Slaughter, and maybe JYD to that group. Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.

Dave was really high on Jimmy in Memphis, and has always said massively positive things about him in Memphis. He wasn't high on him in the WWF, nor WCW.

I've never paid a great deal of attention to managers in the HOF, other than the hindsight point about Corny should have gone in as a "group" with the MX rather than solo as a manager. Don't even recall a discussion about Hart... nor frankly about Heenan, other than everyone in the 80s and early 90s was high on Bobby being up at the top of all-time managers.

Yeah... I'd say Jimmy Hart needs to be on the ballot. If Albano is, Jimmy needs to be. I don't think it would be a tough sell to Dave to get him on, and I suspect Dave would say positive things. Not really one to hammer him too hard over the head about, as you don't really need him to be defensive. I suspect he'd see it as just an oversight that he's never been on the ballot. Might even see him as an oversight of not being in the HOF.

It's kind of hard for Gary Hart to be on there and Jimmy not to be.

John

Do you think Buddy should get in just for work? I think he has a better case than some of the "work" candidates like Hase and Saito (and of course Angle but that's a losing argument with the WON crowd).

It also seems indisputable that he was the longtime centerpiece of a successful territorial promotion. But as you say, the numbers might not be there to make that argument as strong as it could be.

I think of him as Lawler with 1/3 as long a career, but again, I'm not sure that's a winning POV given the voting base.

Buddy is a better "work" candidate than most though I personally wouldn't vote for anyone solely on work (that I can think of anyhow). Having said that - and I've beaten this point into the ground by now - I think from the cumulative period from 77-84 he was the best wrestler in the World based on the footage we have. There are really only a small number of guys that I can even see in the debate with him (Lawler, Fujinami, possibly Terry Funk, maybe Jumbo in the eyes of some, sure Flair would get default votes) and I think they all had advantages Buddy didn't have.

There are two things that hurt Buddy.

The first is that so little of Portland has been seen and a lot of the voters are probably among the least likely people to go back and rewatch it. Loss made the point about HoF guys who are in on work being primarily in on reputation of being good workers and he is basically right. Buddy ALWAYS had that rep, but I think it's hard to contextualize that if you don't actually watch the footage (or didn't see it at the time). I've run into the same issue with Blackwell over at Classics as people have turned themselves into pretzels trying to shoot holes in his candidacy based on statements a simple review of the facts I have compiled would easily refute.

The second problem is the Portland business model. Because Portland didn't run big arenas hardly ever it is going to be a hard sell to certain folks that Buddy was a draw. The fact that Dave himself regards Buddy as the biggest draw in Portland wrestling history and correctly noted that Buddy was the last real draw in San Francisco for Shire is something that means less to a lot of people than it should. I have seen some people suggest that Buddy basically anchored the equivalent of ECW, but that's not really a fair comparison for a variety of reasons:

A. Portland Sports Arena was owned by Don Owen which meant 100 % of profits off ticket sales and concessions and no rental cost/security cost/et. Also unlike with ECW, the Portland Sports Arena didn't run once every three weeks - it ran at least once a week, often twice a week. Also, I THINK the capacity was higher than the ECW Arena (though not by much). Either way it was consistently a sell out during Rose's peak run and Owen not running bigger buildings had more to do with raw economics/bottom line than it did with fear of failure at the gate.
B. By all accounts Portland got far better tv ratings than ECW ever did, even after they'd been moved into a later time slot (do to violence issues IIRC).
C. Portland matches were 2/3 Falls. That may seem irrelevant but I don't think it was as the tv was formatted around this and it also meant that more pressure was on the good hands (i.e. Buddy) to keep things logical, fresh, exciting, et.
D. Don Owen did occasionally run bigger venues (the anniversary shows, Piper/Buddy feud matches) and they always drew big houses for the area and big gates.
E. The Pacific Northwest of that period was much less interconnected than the Northeast corridor where ECW ran - and MUCH less populated (especially at that time).
F. Portland was a profitable territory, to the point where Don Owen was regarded as one of the two or three fairest payoff guys in the business (note that "fair" and "most money" are obviously not the same thing) and was still one of the richest men in the State of Oregon. Yes he made most of his money elsewhere, but the point is that by all accounts the Pacific Northwest wrestling territory was not a "money mark" promotion for Don, but a way to make even more money and he succeeded in that goal. I'm not sure ECW was ever a profitable wrestling business.
G. Portland ran a real, weekly loop. ECW had venues they ran consistently (Asbury Park, Allentown, the ECW Arena), but never weekly, and never off of a single episode of tv. It would be nice if I could find hard numbers to support it, but the commonly accepted view is that Buddy did great business across the territory during his hot period. This is a view that Meltzer, Farmer and others who would know clearly accept as fact.
H. Portland was a territory with history going back to the 20's and ran through until the early 90's. Being the biggest draw and anchor of that promotion is more significant than being the biggest draw or anchor of a promotion that lasted about as long as Buddy's entire peak run in Portland did.

Looking at those raw facts the comp to ECW doesn't really work. But having said that, here is a fun thought experiment.

Imagine ECW had a wrestling history going back to the 1920's. Imagine Shane Douglas comes in and after a few months was elevated to the top spot and by the middle of 94 is doing great business. Imagine Douglas works with a lot of also rans and up and comers always in 2/3 fall matches and always of good-to-great quality. Imagine many of them got over huge and were grabbed up by other promoters. Imagine many of them regarded Douglas as one of the best of all time and used him as a reference point when teaching young talent. Imagine that ECW ran a weekly loop, two ECW Arena shows a week, and did sellouts or near sellouts everywhere. Imagine Douglas quickly becomes the biggest draw in the history of the territory. Imagine ECW was raking in payoffs to the point where Douglas didn't want to leave because he could make more and spend less working for Paul Heyman (lol) than he could anywhere else. Imagine Douglas was loaned out to SMW and spiked business becoming Cornette's biggest draw (before ultimately putting Corny out of business after a wild in ring shoot promo ). Imagine Douglas was loaned out to Vince to work against Bret or Shawn and while the business didn't do as well as hoped it produced great matches. Imagine ECW was one of the hottest shows on tv during this period, drawing huge ratings in Philly and the other towns around the loop. Imagine this period lasted until 02 and by the end of the run ECW was running super shows in 10k plus buildings on occasion and drawing by far and away the biggest attendance figures and gates in the companies history with Douglas still hands down the biggest star in the territory. Imagine a lot of footage from the run wasn't originally available, but Douglas reputation was always as a great in ring talent, then years later when a Target LP guy shows up at his house he uncovers boxes of footage Douglas had taped himself. Imagine it became widely available and a consensus among those who watch the footage starts to form. Imagine that the consensus was that Douglas was arguably the best worker in the World for this cumulative run and also arguably the best worker in the World for several individual years during this run. Imagine Douglas left in 02 and moved to Memphis to form a tag team with Cody Michaels. Imagine they had a critically acclaimed series of matches with CM Punk and Colt Cabana though the promotion was on it's dying days and the bouts didn't do much business because nothing really was at the time. Imagine that upon his departure, ECW quickly started losing steam and became nearly irrelevant. Imagine he returned a few years later, fat and on drugs, still a good worker but to a territory that really didn't matter anymore - largely because there had been no one to fill his enormous shoes when he left.

Now that's not really a fair comparison even then. For example Rose drew better figures in San Fran, than SMW ever drew do to building size IIRC. Still the point is does anyone doubt that Douglas would be considered a strong contender by Dave and co. if all of the above were true? I don't.

What's this in reference to?

Buddy's San Fran run with Shire. He pretty much killed the territory at the end of his run, by running out one night and cutting a shoot promo mid ring about what a piece of shit Shire was.

Buddy Rose's obit for anyone with a F4W sub:
http://www.f4wonline.com/newsletter-archiv...h-trouble-more-

I keep picturing old fat Shane Douglas doing the "Blow-Away Diet Powder" ad, but it's actually crushed-up Oxycontin.

I am really pissed I didn't think of this

Hmmm, so what Buddy Rose should I go out of my way to watch?
I think i've seen maybe 5 matches of his in my life

Honestly there are a shitload of awesome Buddy maches. I like him a lot in all The Rockers tags from 86. The Martel matches in 80 are great. I love the Hennig matches in 83. Really fucking love his stuff with Mando from San Fran. Awesome match with Chris Adams from Portland TV. Fuck just buy Will's Set, there are tons of awesome Buddy matches.

I'm guessing Barry Windham will be on the ballot next year for the first time since 1998, and probably make a decent showing.

John

So what's the big knock against Bill Apter going in?

I've heard various ppl make a case as to why he should but haven't heard many anti Apter arguments as to why he shouldn't.
Still, he's in the bottom 1/4 or so this year and got a smaller % then he did the year before so obviously a lot of folk don't think that highly of him.



Thinking about this, theory i'll toss out

Newer generation = way more apt to be pro international talent and guys who were wrestling when they were probably kids

Older generation = more apt to be marks for the guys with impressive paper resumes like Edge & Moolah since belts and main event slots actually meant a lot more in their day

Not credible and muddied the super serious business of Pro Wrestling history. Not Dave Meltzer essentially despite having far more reach and influence on common or garden fans especially pre-internet.

Yep. Plus could be some wrestlers that won't vote for him because they don't think he covered them or their territories well enough.

Apter should probably go in as well. Complaining about his lack of credibility is criticizing him for something he was never attempting to achieve.

I think in some ways Apter is the best name on the ballot from the perspective that everyone with a vote should be at least aware of his impact on the business. The only possible reason I can see for voting against Apter is if one wanted to argue that Stanley Weston should go in first or Apter should go in in conjunction with him and the PWI family. But given how Dave runs his HoF that seems like a really odd reason not to vote for him.

My biggest problem with Apter is that we really don't know how impactful *inside* the magazine he was.

Apter was the public face of the mag, but he really wasn't the reason any of us bought those fuckers. Did anyone here buy any of those mags specifically to read an Apter piece?

Of course Weston should go in first. Beyond him, we truly don't know how impactful someone like Stu Saks or the other editors/writers were in putting it together week after week. Who actually worked the phones and wrote that stuff. Sure, Bill took photos. But having seen a pro wrestling magazine reviewed and edited on the photo level, as much as a photog needs to be there shooting a crapload of shots and not suck at it, the editors really are the ones sifting through the shots to find the ones that not only fit in with the narrative of the article, but also the rest of the mag. You can't have every match represented by a freaking Power Bomb.

I'm not saying that Bill wasn't involved in the office... but I don't think we've ever had a fully accurate piece on the inside goings on at the Apter Towers. I know that Bill is respected by his "peers" there, and they do put him over as the face of the mag. But... I worked on a couple of pieces on what was probably their biggest selling item of one given year, and I never talked to him at all. It was someone further up the ladder, both in e-mail and on the phone. My recollection of the conversation with who referred him to me was:

"I gave X from PWI your name as someone who might be able to help him something they're working on."

Not:

"I gave Bill Apter your name as someone who might be able to help him something they're working on."

I'd be willing to vote for Bill, but someone needs to make a better case than:

"He was the face of the Apter mags and like famous and shit."

Mark Madden was the face of the Torch along with Wade for a while... then became bigger on a national level... and he fucking sucked.

John