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Loss
Just thought I'd post this for people who struggle to get into Joshi because of some of the stylistic things. If you want more long-term selling and meaningful shifts in momentum, these are matches I'd highly recommend checking out.

Akira Hokuto vs Toshiyo Yamada, AJW 5/3/93
QUOTE
This is a beautiful pro wrestling match. Hokuto is still selling the effects of the match with Kandori and has her arm taped up. Yamada treats it like the neon sign it is and goes right for it, and at one point, Hokuto even has to have her arm re-taped. Hokuto's selling may be the best I've ever seen. She pulls off a LOPSIDED German suplex because she can't use one of her arms. I'm really excited about continuing to watch Hokuto in '93.


Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo, AJW 12/6/93
QUOTE
This was FUCKING GREAT. Absolutely FUCKING GREAT. Kudo wrestles like the Joshi version of Arn Anderson and systematically destroys Kong's arm. In what gets annoying in American matches, but feels cool in Japan because it doesn't happen very often, there's a ref bump, and Kudo gets a visual fall. Kudo's surprise powerbomb from the top rope into a reeaaaaalllly close call was tremendous. This also really had the feel of a world title match because of the pacing being a little slower than normal. I want to make sure I like this because it's as awesome as I think it is, and not just that it stands out because they were doing things not everyone was doing, but my instinct is to call this second to Kong/Kansai as the best Kong match of the year, and also call it a fairly high-end MOTYC, one I think I even liked better than Thunderqueen and the Dreamslam II main event. I'm not sure what the rep is for this match, but it deserves a genuine revisit and evaluation from anyone who hasn't watched it in a long time.

...

Yeah, chalk some of that instant reaction up to overexcitement over some things you don't normally see in this style being rolled out in this match. This is a great match, probably more so than I've seen it get credit for, but it's a shade below the very best matches of the year. But there are a lot of positives, and I still think this is worth a revisit.


Lioness Asuka vs Yumiko Hotta, AJW 3/26/95

My comments aren't overwhelmingly positive, but this is still worth checking out.

QUOTE
I thought this was really, really good. There's lots to like and I think some people will find it really easy to get into. The only problem for me is not the way this match is worked, but more the amount of time it got. It should have been 10 minutes at the most. The punches and headbutts and mat wrestling are all pretty awesome, but after a while, I felt like I had seen everything they were going to do and there was no reason for the match to keep going.


Aja Kong vs Kyoko Inoue, AJW 8/30/96
QUOTE
This is probably a lost classic. Aside from Kudo/Toyota, it's the best Joshi match I've seen in '96, and one of the better matches on the set overall. They pace this like a classic world title match and the selling from both is phenomenal, with lots of staggering, barely hit moves, etc. It's the kinda thing that really puts over the match as a big deal. Some tremendous nearfalls and counters and a very involved crowd. I'm being vague and should review it in depth sometime, but this is awesome.
NintendoLogic
I haven't watched it yet, but I downloaded Jaguar Yokota vs. Pantera Surena from FLIK's website. It took place in Mexico City and was worked like a lucha title match.
KB8
Of all of those, I'm pretty sure the only one I've seen is Hokuto/Yamada from 5/3/93 (taken from the thread in the '93 section):

QUOTE
I fell asleep the first time I tried to watch this and almost skipped over it. I'm glad I didn't because it was really good.

I liked how few momentum shifts they worked into it. There's basically the "feeling out" (with a nastiness to it -- Hokuto's crazy looking "snap" piledrivers) --> Yamada taking over and working the arm --> Hokuto applying another bandage to the shoulder and taking control after the breather --> Yamada spin kicking her in the fucking teeth --> finishing stretch.

I can sometimes be taken out of joshi because the comebacks and transitions occur so regularly, but I thought this was structured and laid out really simply and I enjoyed it quite a bit as a result.


So yeah, I enjoyed, and Hokuto has indeed been someone I've enjoyed quite a bit going through the '93 yearbook.

I'll try and watch at least one of the other ones there tonight.
Chess Knight
Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.
El-P
QUOTE(Chess Knight @ Mar 14 2012, 02:13 PM) *
Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.


Is that the one where Aja beats the shit out of Hotta's hand and brutalizes her ? Is so, yes, amazing match.
Chess Knight
QUOTE(El-P @ Mar 15 2012, 05:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Chess Knight @ Mar 14 2012, 02:13 PM) *
Aja Kong v Yumiko Hotta 1/24/94 belongs here, I think. Hope I'm not wrong about that match still being exceptional.


Is that the one where Aja beats the shit out of Hotta's hand and brutalizes her ? Is so, yes, amazing match.


Yeah. I remember pretty much cringing when Kong started to look like she was honest-to-God trying to tear out Hotta's fingers. I think Misawa/Kawada 6/3 prevents me from calling any other match that year a "match of the year contender," but Kong/Hotta's almost about as good as anything else I've seen from the year. I'd be surprised if I bought the eventual '94 yearbook and found ten better matches on it than that.
NintendoLogic
I mentioned Kong/Hotta in the other thread. I also mentioned the 8/22/85 Devil/Chiggy match.
MJH
I don't think Aja/Hotta is any more than maybe a Top 5 MOTYC for Zenjo in 1994, but it is fucking brutal and one of the best 'Joshi for Non-Joshi' matches you'll find.

The reality is that Joshi has far more stylistic variation than this thread is giving it credit for. Yoshida has stuff in ARSION that's up there with the best matwork-based matches that men have done other than the ultra-top-tier RINGS/whatever; Hokuto/Kandori is as great a big epic match as anything; Dream Rush Main is the perfect inter-promotional match; Kudo/Toyoda is one of, if not the, best death match ever; there're tonnes of great grudge matches; the best sprints are some of the best ever and still pretty 'state of the art' twenty years on; etc...

Really, the only company who had a better collection of matches in the early-mid '90s than AJW was the All Japan men, and there's almost certainly more variety amongst them.
Loss
Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel.
El-P
QUOTE(Loss @ Mar 14 2012, 03:19 PM) *
Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel.


As a guy who spent countless hours talking about joshi from 1999 to about 2002 on various forums including several specifically dedicated to the style (and with a numbers of people), it's a bit sad to see that in 2012, things have reverted to the point of having to argue and demonstrate that joshi isn't all Toyota/go-go-go/screaming. sad.gif
Paul Kersey
Thanks, I've wanted someone to do something like this for awhile. Ill try to watch some of these soon.
Jingus
Kudo/Toyoda certainly deserves a mention, because it also qualifies for the double hat trick of "deathmatch for people who don't like deathmatches". If there's ever been a better barbed wire match of any sort, then I haven't seen it.
ohtani's jacket
I don't remember liking those Hokuto/Yamada or Aja/Kudo matches at all.

My suggestions:

Chigusa Nagayo vs. Leilani Kai, 8/21/86 and 4/27/87
Yukari Omori vs. Lioness Asuka, 4/15/87
Aja Kong/Bison Kimura vs. Bull Nakano/Grizzly Iwamoto, 8/19/90
Bull Nakano vs. Shinobu Kandori, chain match, 7/14/94
Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura, 9/5/99
Mariko Yoshida vs. Hiromi Yagi, 2/18/99
Mariko Yoshida vs. Yumi Fukawa, 5/4/99
Megumi Fujii vs. Mariko Yoshida, 5/24/03
rzombie1988
Let's put it this way, at best Kudo vs Aja was the 4th best match on the show. Kudo looked bad in all of her AJW matches. She was obviously not on the same level and she looked minor league. When you are getting shown up by the midcard matches, its time to pack it up. She looked much better against AJW opponents on FMW shows since the match quality on FMW shows was lower and there weren't other women who were vastly superior. Combat Toyoda was better than her for most of her career and that's not saying much. Kudo got by on her looks and charisma until her last 2 years where she became a good worker. For most of her career, she was like a poor woman's Onita.

As for recommendations:

- Omukai vs Aja from the first ARSION show - This is a really quick high energy match and the crowd is pretty hot. I really enjoyed this one and would have liked it more if the right person went over.
- LCO vs Ito/Watanabe cage match from 9/21/1997 - They took the cage match to a whole new level and did it a 2 weeks before Taker/HBK went into the cell. Tons of nasty bumps and highspots.
- Kudo vs Toyoda deathmatch - Probably the best deathmatch ever.
- Dump vs Chigusa hair matches - Both of these two are awesome. Off the charts heat. Dump is at her best here, especially in the first match. The first match is pro wrestling and watching the post match hair cut is brutal.
Tim Cooke
The Fujii vs. Yoshida match may be the greatest hybrid grappling/mma but still is a pro wrestling match ever. Puts the hype of Josh Barnett NYE 2011 match to shame.
El-P
QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ Mar 15 2012, 08:56 AM) *
For most of her career, she was like a poor woman's Onita.


That's absurd. She didn't get into Onita's spot of working deathmatches before 1995 or so. And she was better than he was at his own matches (and I'm a big Onita fan). But she never had much to work against (mostly Shark and her croonies). When she had quality opponents like Kandori, Oz or Combat, she simply delivered some of the best deathmatches ever.

As far as 93 goes, she looked as good if not better than lot of Zenjo girls during the interpromotionnal shows, and was certainly already better than the overrated Toyota & Yamada in 1993. Aja vs Kudo is a great fucking match. Kudo was working a more deliberate, stiffer pace, with more long term selling than most AJW girls. Combat Toyoda was never close to Kudo, and certainly not during the early days of FMW. She was a good power worker, but let's face it, she also looked good early on because she had Kudo bumping and selling for her. Both improved together, but as much as I like Combat, I wouldn't put her in the same category as Kudo.

Kudo was an excellent worker from 1993 to the time she retired, with a peak in 1996 as a great worker.

I second all your recommandations though. Great stuff all around.
El-P
QUOTE(Tim Cooke @ Mar 15 2012, 09:21 AM) *
The Fujii vs. Yoshida match may be the greatest hybrid grappling/mma but still is a pro wrestling match ever. Puts the hype of Josh Barnett NYE 2011 match to shame.


I still never have seen this. It's been pimped to me countless times.
Loss
Kudo was not as flashy as the AJW wrestlers, but she didn't have to be. Her command of the basics was so far above most of the AJW group. She reminds me of a female Norio Honaga more than a female Atsushi Onita.
El-P
It's even more impressive to see how good she became when you consider who she had to work with at first : Shark Tsuchiya, Miwa Sato, Crusher Maedomari (one of the most worthless worker ever), Tsuppari Mack and Yuki Morimatsu (of Jd' "fame"). Then she got Combat Toyoda and Reibun Amada who were at least pretty good. But when you work with and against mostly totally shitty workers day in and day out, it's not easy to progress. Kudo is probably one of the biggest overachiever in wrestling history.
MJH
Whilst I agree on her over-achievement, I don't buy that Kudo was better than Toyota or Yamada in 1993; I thought she was the weakest of the four in the DS1 main, for instance. On the other hand, fourth best for her match with Aja at St. Final seems strange. Third behind the top two, sure, but I sure can't recall any of the undercard being extraordinary.

What Joshi would really benefit from is a carefully selected (and match-ordered) comp, or something akin to Ditch's site. Most of the Zenjo tapes in circulation are comms, with the full cards, and by the time you get to the meat-and-potatoes on top - almost always the best and pimped matches - the rookies and mid-card will have often exasperated a newbie's patience. And even something like Dream Slam I, or any of the other big epic shows from the interpromotional era, are really fucking long. As great as any of the big AJPW matches are, I don't really want to sit through the first two-odd hours of the show to get to them, but their comms, and far more widely circulated TV blocks, had a lot more (most) of the dreck cut out, too.
El-P
QUOTE(MJH @ Mar 15 2012, 11:07 AM) *
Whilst I agree on her over-achievement, I don't buy that Kudo was better than Toyota or Yamada in 1993


Keep in mind I'm not the biggest fan of either of those two.
FLIK
QUOTE
but I sure can't recall any of the undercard being extraordinary.


Don't think they were on the same lvl as Kudo vs Aja but the 2 6 mans, Bull & LCO vs Cuty, Plum & Fukuoka and W-Inoue & Hotta vs Eagle, Rumi & Harley were both very good.

QUOTE
What Joshi would really benefit from is a carefully selected (and match-ordered) comp, or something akin to Ditch's site


...... http://flik.theditch.biz/wrestlingindeed2.htm not that I update anymore (for various reasons)

and there's Youtube smile.gif

My buddy Doublemiz has hundreds of joshi matches up that get several thousand views http://www.youtube.com/user/DoubleMiz/videos and there's a bunch of other channels that are similar

Stuff like that is what I mean when talking about how lots of ppl still watch joshi it's just that very few talk about it.
Loss
Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami, JWP 4/18/93

My comments are a bit ambiguous here, but I've grown to LOVE this over time, and I think old school types will really dig this.

QUOTE
I like both Bull and Devil and appreciate what they were trying to do here, but it works better in theory than in practice. Really basic 70s/80s-style wrestling can be great, and they execute it well. This is a very good match. But it lacks the excitement and drama of some other Joshi of the year because it really feels behind the times. It's all about context. This would have looked better in a business downturn when the promotion was getting back to basics than in a time period when the new stuff being tried is getting over and working.

Technically, this may be the best women's match on the set, and this really is the blueprint on how to put together a great match. I just wished they'd mixed in a little of 1993, because it seems out of place.

I'm sure some will see this and have a drastically different opinion, which I can appreciate for sure. I don't want to insult this match. It's just not as exciting as I'd like 37 minutes of these two during this time to be.

...

This is really an interesting match, because it's hard to criticize something that well-worked with all these veteran touches that are so, so vacant in wrestling so, so much of the time, even among great workers. But at the same time, it's missing something I can't put my finger on. I'm really interested in reading more opinions on this because I'm conflicted. I would have raved about this on the 1996 yearbook, and here, it feels lacking. Hard to explain.
rzombie1988
QUOTE(Loss @ Mar 15 2012, 09:40 AM) *
Kudo was not as flashy as the AJW wrestlers, but she didn't have to be. Her command of the basics was so far above most of the AJW group. She reminds me of a female Norio Honaga more than a female Atsushi Onita.

Let's put it this way.
Compare her with her 1986 Zenjo classmates - Aja, KAORU, Bison, Combat, Mika Takahashi and Cooga. I'd put her above Cooga but thats not saying much.
Compare her with the 1987 class - Toyota, Yamada, Mita, Shimoda and Sachiko Nakamura. She would be 2nd from the bottom of that list as well. Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada.
Compare her with the 1988 class - Kyoko, Takako, Yoshida. Takako would be the only one I'd go either way with at this stage of the game.

I think that tells you about all you need to know of her development.

Also, to make an obvious point clear, if you would switch her looks with Combat Toyoda or one of the other non-idol types, there's no way she ends up doing half the stuff she did.
FLIK
QUOTE
Let's put it this way.
Compare her with


I'd put her above everyone from all 3 of those clases except Aja, Toyota, Kyoko & Yoshida. Bison & Yamada i'd put on close to the same lvl if not the same. Takako behind but not by much.

QUOTE
Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada


That was a team effort. Everyone stunk it up in that match and I don't think there's anyone who likes Kudo arguing that as a point in her favor.

QUOTE
Kudo looked bad in all of her AJW matches. She was obviously not on the same level and she looked minor league. When you are getting shown up by the midcard matches, its time to pack it up. She looked much better against AJW opponents on FMW shows since the match quality on FMW shows was lower and there weren't other women who were vastly superior.


If we're only counting her 90's run, she only even had like 10 AJW matches period in a 4 year span and most of those weren't against top shelf opponents. Judging her career on that completely misses the boat and "she only looked good on FMW shows because everyone else sucked" is a complete rubbish argument on multiple lvls.
rzombie1988
I'm not judging her career on that but my point stands that she really wasn't anything special until her last 2-3 years. When you compare her with the other AJW girls at the time, it's not happening.

I would not have Kudo above most of those girls.
ohtani's jacket
Kudo is a neat story the way she went from a kindergarten worker to one of the bigger draws in women's wrestling, but she wasn't any better than the midcard talent AJW had in the 70s, 80s and 90s. If she'd wound up in LLPW no one would talk about her.
El-P
QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ Mar 15 2012, 08:44 PM) *
Compare her with her 1986 Zenjo classmates - Aja, KAORU, Bison, Combat, Mika Takahashi and Cooga. I'd put her above Cooga but thats not saying much.


Way above Cooga, above Takahashi (I like her), way above KAORU (who's not above KAORU anyway ?), above Combat, and although I'm a big fan, above Bison.

QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ Mar 15 2012, 08:44 PM) *
Compare her with the 1987 class - Toyota, Yamada, Mita, Shimoda and Sachiko Nakamura. She would be 2nd from the bottom of that list as well. Watch the DS 1 match with Kudo/Toyoda vs Toyota/Yamada and you can see how vastly inferior she was to Toyota and Yamada.


Peak vs peak with Toyota, it's arguable who is the better one. Yamada has been way overrated for ever. I love Shimoda but I think Kudo at her peak was better. I haven't watch peaking Toyota for years, but she would be the only one I would argue was better than peak Kudo.

QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ Mar 15 2012, 08:44 PM) *
Compare her with the 1988 class - Kyoko, Takako, Yoshida. Takako would be the only one I'd go either way with at this stage of the game.


Kyoko and Yoshida at their peak were better. She was better than Takako (who I like more than most).

Kudo would be high on my list.
rzombie1988
Remember, I'm comparing these girls with Kudo from that time period. I think Yamada is often overlooked but I'll definitely admit that she never acheived her full potential.
El-P
When I got into joshi back in 1998, Yamada was hugely pimped as a great worker until 1995. I don't think she's been overlooked at all. It was when I went through 1992 & 1993 that she appeared overrated to me. Still very good to excellent at that time, but not great.
tomk
This is the match list for Dean Rasmussen's old joshi addiction comp which had the same aim:

QUOTE
KAORU vs Combat Toyota- GAEA 2/16/96: This was during the first big angle in GAEA- where FMW and GAEA are at odds and fabulous Memphis-style invasion mayhem ensues. Combat is a lost good worker of the 90s and KAORU is wearing that Silver and Leopard print outfit you love so much and she rocks the world- bumping like a freak for Combat's Offense O' Danger and selling the knee like a champ.

Yumiko Hotta/ Manami Toyota/ Sakie Hasegawa vs. Mayumi Ozaki/ Plum Mariko/ Hikari Fukuoka- ALL JAPAN WOMEN 8/25/93: One of the great forgotten Joshi matches during the AJW vs JWP heyday. The late Plum Mariko and Sakie Hasegawa- the budding star whose career was cut short by back injury- are in this and show the depth of the rosters back in the day, since they are lowmen on the totem pole at the time but could still go with anyone in the world. Plum goes at it fullbore with a meth-amphetamine-level workrate of circa 93 Manami, takes the beating Hotta can dish and then takes the longest Locomotion Suplex from the fabulous Sakie Hasegawa. The nearfalls are molten, the workrate in astronomical and highspots are thoroughly queensized. All this plus a BARELY LEGAL OZ!!!

Hikari Fukuoka/KAORU vs Chikayo Nagashima/Toshie Uematsu- GAEA 3/8/96: KAORU and Hikari Fukuoka were a fun tagteam that should have stayed together and did something. They did beat the life out of the then rookies Toshie Uematsu and Chakayo Nagashima. The finish is suitably gnarley.

Yumiko Hotta/ Kyoko Inoue/ Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki/ Plum Mariko/ The Bolshoi Kid- AJW DREAMSLAM 2- 4/11/93: It's all fun and games until Hotta starts punting the clown. Possibly my favorite match ever involving Kyoko Inoue.

Sugar Sato/ Chikayo Nagashima vs Sonoko Kato/ Toshie Uematsu- GAEA 9/16/96: My favorite tagteam- Sato and Nagashima- have their first really good match. Toshie Uematsu and Sonoko Kato brawl like motherfuckers in this fabulous, primordial, brand new-OZ Academy vs GAEA Young Punkin ass-stomp. All four RULE it in this.

Jaguar Yokota vs Peggy Lee- ALL JAPAN WOMEN I'm assuming 1982ish: WOW's THUG when she was young(er) hangs with the best wrestler in Joshi history , just by being the fabulous old school redneck heel trhat God made her to be- whipping up on Jaguar, bumping really well and being an all round hateful little queenie. Her boots MOTHERFUCKING RULE. Jaguar REALLY MOTHERFUCKING RULES in this what with her "light years ahead of its time" moves and execution.

Megumi Kudo vs Mayumi Ozaki (Barbed Wire Match) FMW 4/18/97: Most footage I've ever been able to find of the fabulous deathmatch between Kudo and the QUEEN of the Deathmatch, Mayumi Ozaki. OZ looks so fucking hot when she is dressed to perform the Death Match. The ripped jeans, the Navy Seals t-short- RoRRROwwwwRR!

Sonoko Kato vs Meiko Satomura- GAEA 5/12/96: Finals of a rookie tournament and the first time you say, "WHOA! Who is the Meiko Satomura?"

Tomoko Kozumi vs Kanako Motoya (JWP Jr Title) - JWP 5/97: Kozumi is now Azumi Hyuga and Motoya is now Kana Mizaki of JWP. This match is so good that it gets you depressed when you think that it wasn't long before these two fell off the face of the earth in the turmoil and slow death of JWP- as opposed to having the high profile matches that matches like these would lead you to believe they could have had by now.

Meiko Satomura/ Sonoko Kato vs Tomoko Miyaguchi (now YuYu Ran)/ Saya Endo- Junior All-Star Show 8/2/97: This is a big fat batch of fun fun fun! I wish they would bring back the Junior All Star shows because you would get cool little interpromotional matches like this. God, add Miyaguchi to the "career fucked by the decline and death of JWP" heap. She ABSOLUTELY rocks in this- as she and Meiko trying to see who can being the biggest bitch in the match. Meiko is already spectacular at this point and I really love this match.

Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong- AJW BIG EGG WRESTLING UNIVERSE 11/20/94: Aja reels in the excessive tendencies and psychological shortcomings of Manami, thus allowing her to freak out all she wants with the high spots and BOY! does she. Manami takes a QUEEN-SIZED beating on the way (Ohhh, it's BIG! Manami is tough as motherfucking nails in this). Aja rocks like a hurricane- being the best monster heel that ever wrestled but taking it to the nth power in this match.

2/3 Falls: Jaguar Yokoto/ Noriyo Tateno vs. Dump Matsumoto/ Crane Yu- 1984ish: Dump hadn't gone completely crazy yet so the entrance isn't like it would be two years from this point (in that she hadn't drawn a swastika on her forehead and assaulted everyone at the annoucers table. She did have the rad Nancy Spungeon punk rock bob hairstyle going at this point.) Jaguarrules like Jaguar will rule and Noriyo rocks the Mrs Brady coiffe that all the moms were sporting at the time. Dump starts stabbing early.

Megumi Kudoh/ Combat Toyota vs Manami Toyota/ Toshiyo Yamada- FMW 5/5/93: FMW used to have a rockin' little Women's division with fun angles and cool interpromotional matches. Here, the really really great tgteam of Toyota and Yamada take on the AJW ex-patriates with fabulous results. Megumi Kudo was so cool looking so hot while punching folks in the face. And this match was before Yamada ruined her knees and back and became the Masa Chono of Joshi. Combat is solid as ever. Toyota hits the greatest dropkick in the history of wrestling on Combat about four minutes in.

Yuko Kosugi/Jaguar Yokota vs Sumie Sakai/ Megumi Yabushita- Jd'- 4/26/98 : The greatest man to ever walk the face of the earth- GLENN TSUNEKAWA- hipped me to the greatness of Jd'. Kosugi was a real up-and-comer who retired shortly after starting to show some real zest. Yabushita and Sakai came in together after achieving status as legit Judo girls- so they suplex like motherfuckers. Here they are after they just came in and the godlike Jaguar carries EVERYBODY- but you can see the spark that makes Jaguar trainees so good. Sakie and Yabushita are already busting out the cool submissions even at this early stage in their careers.

Debbie Malenko vs. Terry Powers- 2/28/93 ALL JAPAN WOMEN: GODDAMN! I didn't even know I HAD this match on tape but I was scouring Quebrada Mike's Tapelist to see if it would give me any ideas for this comp and I said "HEY! I have that tape! I haven't watched it yet! JUMPING HOLY CRAP! IT'sGOT FRICKIN DEBBIE MALENKO ON IT!" Debbie Malenko is mysterious and legendary because her career was so short and taped accounts of her matches are scarce- making her sorta like a distaff grappler James Dean. Here she is against the woman who would become WWF's Ivory and it's a damn good match and it's for the All Japan title and everything. Terry Powers speaks of getting trained by Brad Rheingans. Debbie Malenko RULED he fricking WORLD. Post-match Debbie speaks some Japanese for her Peeps. Mmmmm.... Malennnkoooo........

Marine Wolves vs The Crush Gals- 2/3 falls for the WWWA Tag Titles- All Japan Women-4/27/89: The Crush Gals are Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Aska. The Marine Wolves is a 22 year old Akira Hokuto and the mysterious Suzuka Minami- who I've only seen a few times. Chigusa and the divine Lioness assume the role of elder ass-stompers with real panache- walking to the ring sullen and angry. The Marine Wolves are irrepressible scamps who torment their elders. Chigusa was still agile and nifty and Lioness is just FUCKING AWESOME in this. Notice how the psychology and the story of the match is so unlike the stuff from 92-97 AJW- as the match is based on Old School psychology of Lioness and Chigusa trying to rip Akira' arm out of the socket like Estrogen Anderson Brothers. Watching this, you'll see where Chigusa wanted the style of GAEA to develop from the start.

Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs. Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori- AJW WRESTLING QUEENDOM 3/27/94: This match is fucking GREAT- Hokuto and Kandori legit hate each other's guts and they get wrangled into this Pareja Increíbles. Bull Nakano was a truly great wrestler and is great in this match bumping GIGANTIC for Hokuto's fucking NASTY dangerous offense; Aja is at her stiff-as-fuck, ass-beating zenith- thus it all balances out the endless fun of Akira and Shinobu hating each other's stinking guts but still having to tag each other. In glorious Windowbox Format to truly make the "AWWWW fuck you! I hate you!" tags even more fun. Aja vs Kandori is MAGIC, DADDY!

Jumping Bomb Angels vs. Devil Masami/ Yukari Omori- AJW 12/86: The Jumping Bomb Angels- Noriyo Tateno and Itsuki Yamazaki - and Mimi Hagiwara were the forerunners of the hyperworkrate style to overtake Joshi by the early 90s. Omori is the demented Joan Crawford of 80s AJW and she is big and hateful in this. Devil is all younger (only 24!) and spritely in this as she hangs with the highflying Angels.
NintendoLogic
I recently watched Shinobu Kandori's WWWA title defense against Manami Toyota and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that Kandori is the unsung heroine of 90s joshi. She brings an aura of violence and legitimacy to her matches the same way Brock did at Extreme Rules, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'd always taken it as an article of faith that Akira Hokuto brought Kandori up to her level in the Dreamslam match. But as I see more of each of their work, I'm increasingly convinced that Kandori was the main driver of that match.
ohtani's jacket
Kandori was a better worker than she was given credit for in the rspw days, but there's no way she was the main driver of that match.
NintendoLogic
Well, I think that Kandori could have had a match like the one at Dreamslam with a number of wrestlers (from an in-ring standpoint, not storyline-wise). But Hokuto couldn't have had that match with anyone but Kandori.
rzombie1988
QUOTE(NintendoLogic @ May 4 2012, 07:31 PM) *
I recently watched Shinobu Kandori's WWWA title defense against Manami Toyota and was shocked at how much I enjoyed it. I'd even go so far as to say that Kandori is the unsung heroine of 90s joshi. She brings an aura of violence and legitimacy to her matches the same way Brock did at Extreme Rules, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'd always taken it as an article of faith that Akira Hokuto brought Kandori up to her level in the Dreamslam match. But as I see more of each of their work, I'm increasingly convinced that Kandori was the main driver of that match.

Finally, people are seeing the light. I've seen more Kandori than most people and I find her really underappreciated and underrated. I loved the Toyota match(I gave it 4.5-4.75*), I liked the Hotta match and the tag leading up to it, loved DS, loved her tag against Yamada at Big Egg, liked her early LLPW match with Tatento, the Bull match(and the lead up tag to it) and I liked her series with Kudo. As you said, she brings the fire and legitimacy and she knows when to turn it on. Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW.

On a side note, she is also a pretty cool lady. Not as scary as Chigusa though!

*Still holding out hope for Aja/Kandori match.
FLIK
QUOTE
Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW.


Latter especially. Early LLPW & Early JD are really the black sheeps of joshi. Lots of great stuff to be found but very few (myself included) ever take the time to explore it deeply.

*EDIT*
There's tons of great Kandori matches one could bring up but just real quick i'll give a special mention to the matches vs Devil & vs Kansai in 80's JWP just as an example that she'd allready been really good for years before the Hokuto match which is usually the earliest one ppl talk about among her work.
ohtani's jacket
The only other matches Kandori had on the level of the Hokuto one were against Devil and Bull, two workers with strong personalities in their own right. Kandori was a good foil because she was seen as legit and had shot on Jackie Sato and we all know how Japanese pro-wrestling loves shooter/wrestler angles. Put Kandori in the driver's seat, however, and it wouldn't have worked. Hokuto brought all the heat. That Dream Slam match is 100% about Hokuto. The arc in that match is incredible, probably bigger than any story arc in pro-wrestling history. Kandori plays her part in destroying Hokuto, but it's really Hokuto's promos that tell the story.
rzombie1988
QUOTE(FLIK @ May 7 2012, 02:06 PM) *
QUOTE
Kandori just suffers alot from never jobbing in LLPW and from being in LLPW.


Latter especially. Early LLPW & Early JD are really the black sheeps of joshi. Lots of great stuff to be found but very few (myself included) ever take the time to explore it deeply.

*EDIT*
There's tons of great Kandori matches one could bring up but just real quick i'll give a special mention to the matches vs Devil & vs Kansai in 80's JWP just as an example that she'd allready been really good for years before the Hokuto match which is usually the earliest one ppl talk about among her work.

I'm all about Yuko Kosugi, who made an appearance within the last week. Looks younger than she did when she actually was younger.

Toyota vs Kandori is totally on level. Had Toyota not botched a few moves, it would have been 5 stars.

The Sato shoot was really petty. She ought to be embarassed about it.

Hokuto wouldn't have as much heat without Kandori. Kazama vs Hokuto shows that.
ohtani's jacket
Well, even though Kazama owned LLPW she wasn't seen as its top star. The Hokuto/Kazama feud would've been like Kandori challenging Takako or Cutie to a fight.
El-P
QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ May 7 2012, 05:49 PM) *
I'm all about Yuko Kosugi, who made an appearance within the last week. Looks younger than she did when she actually was younger.


Made an appearance ? Where ?
I was a huge Bloody fan. One of my all time favourite worker. I really enjoyed Kusogi too, she really could have become something special as a worker I think if she didn't retired so soon. Loved Yabushita & Sakai too, especially Yabushita. Jd' is the great lost promotion.

QUOTE(rzombie1988 @ May 7 2012, 05:49 PM) *
Hokuto wouldn't have as much heat without Kandori. Kazama vs Hokuto shows that.


What Dan said. Kazama just wasn't a big star at the level of Hokuto or Kandori. She pushed herself a bit too much at times because she was Da Mistress of LLPW. The fact that Hokuto carried her to her best match ever says a lot about Hokuto at that point, because Kuzama wasn't a very good worker.
NintendoLogic
QUOTE(Loss @ Mar 14 2012, 05:19 PM) *
Maybe this thread is playing into perception that everyone in Joshi wrestles exactly like Manami Toyota, but that's the exact myth we're attempting to dispel.


I've been watching a lot of joshi lately, and I'm increasingly puzzled by the notion that Toyota was that much of an outlier. Granted, she was on the extreme end with the sprintiness, and her execution was sloppier than most. But to me, things like lousy transitions and no regard for long-term selling are far bigger problems, and those were pretty universal among her peers. Personally, I'd rather watch Toyota go-go-go than Kyoko Inoue's dazzling array of camel clutches and surfboards.
ohtani's jacket
Toyota wasn't an outlier. She was the one that the majority of the other workers wanted to be like. Her style wasn't that unique, either. Dating back to the 70s there are workers who wrestle a go-go-go style. There was a period where the workers were influenced by Jaguar Yokota and Chigusa Nagayo, but for the most part go-go-go has always been the trademark of Japanese women's wrestling and only workers with different builds or slightly different strengths deviated from that path. The key is the rhythm. If you can't get into the rhythm of Joshi puroresu then it's not very enjoyable. You have to watch a whole bunch of it to get a proper feel for it. Kyoko Inoue was a super pro-wrestler. The camel clutches and surfboards were part of the rhythm of Joshi matches and I doubt they bother anybody who's really into Joshi like FLIK or MJH. Long term selling I think is a bulllshit concept and should be an obsolete criticism. Why should there be long term selling? It's lazy psychology. You can hobble around on a bad wheel in a big match every once and a while, but to do it every match is asinine. You got stretched out for a bit, it hurt, but you don't need to go around limping for the rest of the match. That's boring. The transitions either work or don't work depending on whether you're into the rhythm I guess. I mean when the partners start saving each other ad nauseum and they've called each other kono yaro for the millionth time it really depends whether you're into it rather than it being structurally sound. My problem in the matches I've tried to watch recently is that they're too dense, but Japanese wrestling is like that. It's full of overkill. The 90s was just this fat, bloated era where they overdid everything and cashed in.
NintendoLogic
I was in the middle of a long reply a while back, but I got bored in the middle of it. I'll just post the truncated one.

I was under the impression that Jaguar was one of the main drivers of the style becoming more fast-paced and athletic. And I would say that completely blowing off targeted body part work is both lazier and less compelling from a dramatic standpoint. Why even bother going after a body part if it isn't going to go anywhere or lead to anything? And it's not just limb work, comebacks in general are too easy. When someone gets worked over for ten minutes and then reverses an Irish whip and becomes a house of fire, it's difficult for me to get invested.
ohtani's jacket
They're not getting a body part worked over; they're just getting stretched. It happens in every Joshi match. The submission sections are as predictable as the outside brawling, the nearfalls, the reversals, the saves or any other component of the matches. It's something they do in the first third of the match. Sometimes it's sold well, but often it's crap. The same is true of every other wrestling formula. I don't know what type of wrestling you like, but I bet we could pick it apart. Working a body part is a storyline in some Joshi matches, but not all Joshi matches. Submissions are a part of practically every Joshi match but not a storyline. Why do it? Because that's the way their working style developed over time? It's not something I really care for, but selling a body part all the time is the opposite extreme. The emphasis in Joshi is that after the matches they're always buggered. Regardless of what was sold during the match, they always put over how fucked they are after a match. That's what you're supposed to take away from it.

Jaguar didn't make it faster. She may have made it more athletic, but more so in the context of her moveset. But she actually wasn't alone in doing that.
NintendoLogic
QUOTE(ohtani @ Jun 8 2012, 11:00 PM) *
They're not getting a body part worked over; they're just getting stretched. It happens in every Joshi match. The submission sections are as predictable as the outside brawling, the nearfalls, the reversals, the saves or any other component of the matches. It's something they do in the first third of the match. Sometimes it's sold well, but often it's crap. The same is true of every other wrestling formula. I don't know what type of wrestling you like, but I bet we could pick it apart.


I like mainly 90s All Japan and mid-90s WWF (mostly Bret Hart), but I'm not blind to their faults by any means. I've heard the various criticisms of King's Road, and I'm in basic agreement with most of them. They just don't bother me all that much in practice. Wrestling is entertainment, not a math equation. Just as different people are entertained by different things, different people are bothered by different things.

QUOTE
Working a body part is a storyline in some Joshi matches, but not all Joshi matches. Submissions are a part of practically every Joshi match but not a storyline. Why do it? Because that's the way their working style developed over time? It's not something I really care for, but selling a body part all the time is the opposite extreme.


I suppose that's true in theory, but I can't think of a single match that was actually hurt by too much body part selling.

QUOTE
The emphasis in Joshi is that after the matches they're always buggered. Regardless of what was sold during the match, they always put over how fucked they are after a match. That's what you're supposed to take away from it.


See, this is useful context. It's not ideal, but it's something.

It may sound like I'm down on joshi, but I'm really not. There are plenty of joshi matches that I like a lot. I think it's easier for me to outline what I don't like than what I do. Beyond that, I enjoy breaking things down as much as possible to figure out what I like and why.
ohtani's jacket
I'm not trying to defend Joshi. It's something I watched a lot of at one time, but I can barely stand it myself these days. I guess the point I've been trying to make is that you can't expect it to be something that it's not. You're not going to turn on a match and see some kind of Toshiaki Kawada selling performance.
MARTYEWR
Not really Joshi, but thought I'd post these here. Blame Loss. He said I could. smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TGXE8Y63Dk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw7_7_Cq5aU
Jingus
QUOTE(MARTYEWR @ Jun 27 2012, 09:21 PM) *


What. The FUCK. Was that?!

Is all Japanese television just a nonsensical cacophony of bright colors and people constantly shrieking? I think every scrap of live action TV I've seen from that country (barring sports) all looks like something aimed at very young children. Do they have an equivalent to HBO dramas over there? It's weird that their TV is so goofy, considering how dark and squicky their movies often are.
ohtani's jacket
Looks like a comedy sketch from a variety show. Japanese TV dramas have low budgets. Even the serious ones are cheap looking.
FLIK
Birth of OZ Academy highlight package, one of my favorite joshi angles/feuds of all time. Your female equivilent of the 4 Horsemen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04xzS_dJj94
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