Wrestlemania 20 7

[goodhelmet]

They should have ended with Taker-HHH. Hindsight 20/20 and all.

[Loss]

So after building the show around a Rock/Cena confrontation, they didn't even do one? Did I read that right?

[Kostka]

He reset it then Rockbottomed and costed Cena the match.

[CodySave]

What a strange Wrestlemania - in many ways it felt like a super-long episode of RAW. I didn't get the impression that many of these feuds are tied up and clearly they're building to a match between The Rock and Cena down the road, though this is something we knew going into the show.

 

I guess I was expecting a real surprise in the main event, like Cena turning full-fledged heel (despite throwing away millions of merchandise dollars) or even The Rock working his way into the match or somehow winning the belt after the Cena-Miz match.

[Strummer]

what a strange show

 

it did not have the feel of a "modern" mania

 

it felt like something out of the "federation" years with all the faces going over and a bunch of short matches in the undercard

 

I knew as soon as JR said Cena had never lost a 1 on 1 match at Mania that Miz was going to win. Kind of thought he would win anyway with all the faces going over throughout the show

[Log]

So, they basically put The Rock over Miz and Cena to end the show. He's got to be sticking around, right? Vince is a lot of things, but not stupid. Surely he wouldn't have that ending without more Rock to come.

[Bix]

There's no way Rock's not sticking around in some form. It was just too weird otherwise.

 

Before the show a friend of mine and I pretty much simultaneously came to conclusion they're gonna do a year-long build for Rock-Cena in Miami.

 

Overall, it's hard to say the show was less than very good. Edge-Del Rio was pretty good, especially by Edge standards. Rey-Cody was really good with a good story and some creative spots. Orton-Punk was an excellent match with a perfectly executed finish that made up for it being telegraphed. Taker-HHH was exactly the match they needed to have and quite the ride. Yeah, it borrowed heavily from the Michaels matches, especially the first one, but that's almost expected from Taker WM matches now. Both guys were taking bumps like it was their last match and I hope Taker wasn't killed by that chairshot. Cena-Miz started generic and got pretty good.

 

It sucks that Cole-Lawler was so disappointing, though.

[Strummer]

Hunter was taking some nasty flat back bumps in that match. Almost painful to watch (that is in a physical way, not aesthetically)

[Loss]

He reset it then Rockbottomed and costed Cena the match.

I understand that, but it's odd to me that they wouldn't get in a brawl of some type or at least have words.

 

Also, how does Rock have the authority to restart matches?

 

(I'm asking these questions more because I didn't see the show and can't really follow how things happened from any recaps I've read than I am because I'm complaining about what they did.)

[Log]

He reset it then Rockbottomed and costed Cena the match.

I understand that, but it's odd to me that they wouldn't get in a brawl of some type or at least have words.

 

Also, how does Rock have the authority to restart matches?

 

(I'm asking these questions more because I didn't see the show and can't really follow how things happened from any recaps I've read than I am because I'm complaining about what they did.)

 

Rock was the "host" of WM, so that's how he had the authority.

[El-P]

Well, if that's what considered a "very good wrestling show" by 2011 standarts, I must agree with WWE's policy of removing teh word wrestling from their logo once and for all. I hadn't watch a full WWE card since WM two years ago. Man... First though after the show : who booked this shit ? Second thoughts : the best moments were Rocky's promo, Rocky facing off with Austin, and Austin giving a few stunners around.

Man, this new guys are all dull as dirt, and the wrestling is flat as hell. Edge is just a terrible wrestler, there's nothing to add about him. I like Alberto Del Rio's character. He doesn't seem too great in the ring, but at least he's got a personnality. Match was average at best.

Rey Rey vs Cody Rhodes was decent, but man, Cody Rhodes is as dull as it comes, and what the fuck was this angle with the mask? Awful stuff. And I really laugh at the concept Rey turned into this great storyteller in WWE. What I see is an aging Rey doing the same spots, only slower, and building an entire match (and angle) around a terrible WWE marketed spot.

CM Punk vs Randy Orton was the best match of the show, by far, thanks to Punk, who looks like the best worker in the company by a huge margin. Orton is still a black hole, nice to see. He has to be the most manufactured, forced character I've seen, I don't believe his "I'm slowwwww because I'm eeeeevil" act one second. That said, his selling was excellent here, and they did some really good spots and teases. Still, since I'm currently deeply immerged into WCW 1998, I saw the Diamond Cutter, sorry, the RKO, from the top rope coming from miles away. But a really good match though, the only one of the show. Punk is excellent. Orton should send some money to DDP.

Man, Sunny looks great, good for her.

I don't know who the Core are, they basically look all the same, and from the vibe I get from this match, they are jobbers with the IC (didn't know this thing still existed, but the World Title is the IC title, at least that's what I got from the opening match) and tag titles. Nice to see Kane still has the all time worst lariat from the top rope.

What was next already ? Oh, yeah, that debacle of Lawler vs Cole. From all I heard about great built and anticipation, seems like this was put together by the same guy who put together Bret vs Vince from last year. Awful stuff. And really, Lawler does look old, not at all what I was expecting. Still, the dropkick was great, it's too bad those WWE douchebag wouldn't let him piledrive Cole's ass three time in a row after 5 minutes of him getting killed, which was the only thing to do. So yeah, who booked this shit ?

As much as JR got annoying during the Attitude era, the announcing was so bad that him showing up just took the announcing of the show in another stratosphere. Seriously, why isn't he doing this job ? And the ring announcer is just as the rest of the product is : dull, clean, manufactured. You hear the Fink introduce the Hall of Famer and you get another vibe. Yes, he's old, and fat, and bald. So what ? He should at the very least do the introductions for the main matches.

Triple H vs Taker was straight out of 1999-2000, and I was already fast forwarding these matches back then. Plus it had the super formulaïc "WWE EPIC WRESTLEMANIA MATCH" stamp into it, complete with kicking out of finishers and trying your opponent's finisher. Does absolutely nothing for me. Taker's entrance was awesome though.

I didn't bother watching anything beside Trish Stratus entrance, is it me or does she look a bit aneroxic ? I have no idea who "Snooki" is, nor do I care.

Man, Cena has another funky entrance. SO, this guy, The Miz, wharever that means, is main eventing Wrestlemania ? And winning it to boot ? WBTS ? Another dull as dirt guy with very limited actual wrestling ability. It shows that all those guy come from the same mold, and it's a mold I'll be happy to break down right now. I kinda like Cena, he's not very good mechanicaly, he looks like a goof, but he's got shitloads of charisma, especially if you're 10 year old I guess, and he works his ass off. But still, The Miz ? Really ? And the only thing they figured to involve the Rock was a *draw*, so The Rock was there to restart the match, only to turn on Cena (which again, was obvious), which allowed that flat heel to win ? So the end WM on The Rock ? Man, felt like a complete nostalgia enfing to me.

Really, after watching this, I'll be happy to never watch another WWE event again, although that probably won't happen because I will watch Taker's last match whenever that happens, but if this is what passes for good wrestling in 2011, then yes, WWE isn't wrestling.

Either I'm an old bitter guy, either that show really was dull and flat, and full of dull and flat wrestling matches. I tend to think I'm not bitter.... But yeah, it really didn't do it for me, and the way things were booked doesn't indicate any bright future for wrestling, it was all about nostalgia, more than WCW ever was. God bless old footage yet to discover.

[rovert]

The production values were WAY better than a lot of the wrestling and certionly the story of the show.

 

I dont know why some people are heralding Under/Taker as great or a Wrestlemania classic WWE might as well have put up energy and momentum bars on the screen for how video gamey it was.

[El-P]

I dont know why some people are heralding Under/Taker as great or a Wrestlemania classic WWE might as well have put up energy and momentum bars on the screen for how video gamey it was.

Although I totally disagree about Meltzer on how he thinks it was a great match, he still made a great point about how if the same match move for move happened on a ROH show with indy guys as opposed to WM with Taker and HHH, everybody in the WWE locker room would dismiss these guys as "not knowing how to work" and basically just kicking out of finishers back and forth. Well, it was better than their terrible 2001 match at least.

[Cox]

Maybe it was because I threw a party and was drunk by the time the show started, but I enjoyed the show. Nothing stood out as being particularly bad except Lawler/Cole (and that should have been better, but they were given way too much time, they should have cut this match in half), and most of the matches ranged in the pretty good range. Nothing was particularly great either, but it still felt like a good show to me.

 

My main complaint is, four hours is WAY too long for a wrestling show, or really anything at all. I wouldn't want to watch a four hour ANYTHING, be it a movie, sporting event, or wrestling show. I know they want to make sure that as many folks as possible share in the Wrestlemania payday without cutting time from the World title matches, the yearly Undertaker spectacle, and the long intros and what have you, and I get that they want to make Wrestlemania seem bigger than every other show. But four hours is just too long to be sitting in the same place.

[shawmic]

I dont know why some people are heralding Under/Taker as great or a Wrestlemania classic WWE might as well have put up energy and momentum bars on the screen for how video gamey it was.

Although I totally disagree about Meltzer on how he thinks it was a great match, he still made a great point about how if the same match move for move happened on a ROH show with indy guys as opposed to WM with Taker and HHH, everybody in the WWE locker room would dismiss these guys as "not knowing how to work" and basically just kicking out of finishers back and forth. Well, it was better than their terrible 2001 match at least.

 

That's the Alan4L argument and it's true only if you don't consider the fact that Undertaker's tombstone has been protected for 20 years. You can probably count on one hand the number of times it's been kicked out of after an immediate cover. Guys in ROH & Dragon Gate each have 5-10 finishing moves that are kicked out of in every match. None are protected.

 

Speaking of which, from today's WOR talking about Tozawa vs Yamatao at yesterday's DGUSA show:

 

Bryan: "They finally do the big spot where Yamato hits the Galleria, one of his finishers, and Tozawa leaps up at 1 which always gets the people just losing it, so he gets up at 1..."

Dave: "I'm surprised they don't do that more because everytime I see it...they did that spot in one of the matches the night before too...and it just works so well."

 

Fuck. Remember that next time they are habitually complaining about basic wrestling booking and finishers not being protected. Kick out at 1 it gets a big pop!

 

And add me to the list of people who though WrestleMania was a terrible show. I'm actually stunned there's even a small hand full of people who liked it (outside of Dylan who saw it live and probably had a much different experience). Easily the worst Mania by far since 16 and while I do remember 16 being brutal I actually felt last night was worse.

[flyonthewall2983]

I'm hearing rumblings that Taker suffered a pretty bad concussion last night. Anyone else hear that?

[El-P]

That's the Alan4L argument and it's true only if you don't consider the fact that Undertaker's tombstone has been protected for 20 years. You can probably count on one hand the number of times it's been kicked out of after an immediate cover. Guys in ROH & Dragon Gate each have 5-10 finishing moves that are kicked out of in every match. None are protected.

I understand, although to me it's not really a matter of protecting finishers. It's more that really, that match was finisher, kick out, "sell" (which in that case looked more like "rest"), finisher, kick out, "sell", rince, repeat ad nauseam,, which is not what I call good work at all.

Then again, Meltzer did like the match.

[S.L.L.]

it felt like something out of the "federation" years with all the faces going over

Really? Cena lost, Rey lost, Lawler lost. Taker won, but basically died en route to victory. Orton and Edge, both of whom are really only faces because the company tells us they are, won. Orton actually worked like a face for once, but on a "mark" level, I honestly came away feeling bad for Del Rio. Snooki and Team Random Smackdown Babyfaces were triumphant, but this didn't feel like a "send the fans home happy" Mania at all to me. Strictly speaking, this was a perfectly fine wrestling show with the matches delivering for the most part. Honestly, I didn't even hate Lawler/Cole that much, though I don't have any strong desire to ever see it again, and the Snooki match had me fantasy booking a fifth season of Jersey Shore where they go to Cancun for spring break and she somehow ends up becoming Bracita de Plata and getting carried to a good ten minute match by Pierrothito. But the booking of it all just felt so weird, and this is the one show of the year where the booking really means as much to me as the match quality, so...yeah. I imagine I'll like it more as I get distance from it, but right now, the show leaves me feeling hollow.

[Bix]

As far as the finisher kick out argument in the Taker WM matches goes:

 

In the ROH style matches, they just pick up where they left off. In the Taker matches, it's portrayed as the guy taking the move having enough energy to kick out...and that's it. He's still selling it like a finisher afterwards.

[shawmic]

As far as the finisher kick out argument in the Taker WM matches goes:

 

In the ROH style matches, they just pick up where they left off. In the Taker matches, it's portrayed as the guy taking the move having enough energy to kick out...and that's it. He's still selling it like a finisher afterwards.

Agreed. The night after WM25, Meltzer was doing the whole "if Michaels/Taker had that match in ROH everyone would be up in arms" argument. In ROH the night before WM25, KENTA hit a falcon arrow on Davey Richards off the apron to the floor...they were up seconds later and Richards was chanting "fuck WrestleMania" with the crowd. Yep. Same thing as Michaels and Undertaker selling a tombstone/superkick like death for 2-3 minutes.

[Ditch]

There's two criticisms about Taker/HHH and I think they're getting overly lumped together.

 

1. "Too many finishers". The counter, "it's okay in that context and the big moves were sold for a while", seems right to me.

 

2. "The match was spotty/plodding". This seems just about impossible to refute. The last half of the match, were there even ten moves/spots in the last 15 minutes? Move, pause as the guy who did it recovers, nearfall, more selling, next move. Don't even get me started about the "guy does corner punches in the middle of the finishing run to set up the Last Ride" spot, which happens in over half of the big Taker matches. When I'm watching a match in this style, I find it anticlimactic more often than not. The 'wait 20 seconds before covering' part especially ruins the drama.

 

My thought is that the key to being able to enjoy it, is whether you're a year-round, watch-most-TV-shows WWE follower. In which case...

 

-You're used to being patient for in-ring content

-The big main event style stands out more after watching countless forgettable matches

-Certain spots (ie. the corner punch ---> Last Ride) aren't as predictable, because you haven't seen it in X number of matches

 

My reactions largely mirror El-P's, and neither of us watch a significant amount of WWE, so maybe that's why.

[El-P]

Two more things about this show : they managed to kill off the Royal Rumble once and for all with this one. Winning the Rumble allows you to be in the opening match for a title that is named "World Title" but realistically seems like the old IC title to me.

The other thing which struck me :everything looks like it was back in 2001, only cleaner and with more money thrown around. But really, the product looks exactly the same in term of presentation. Including the same shitty backstage vignettes (oh, that Snoop Dog stuff was awful), and unfunny jokes involving Mae Young. Think how much things evolved between WM 7 and WM 17. And how few things changed really in the mast 10 years. When the big match of the show was HHH vs Taker (because let's be honest, Cena vs Miz didn't had the aura of a WM main event at all), and the biggest stars objectively were The Rock and Steve Austin, all of it feels a bit odd to me. Someone who wouldn't have watched WWE since WM17 would probably got the impression that the stars of yesterday are still the only stars, and that really, the product became totally stale and didn't evolved much if at all. And really, I followed things enough to know that Rey, Jack Swagger, Randy Orton an CM Punk are all former World or WWE champion. But do you really get that feeling when you see them that they are any kind of big stars ? I certainly I don't. Whic also means title don't mean jackshit, the stars are still the same old same old from 10 years ago. And the only big star they produced since then, Cena, as already been around on top longer than Austin and Rock.

Really, no wonder why I get that feeling of total boredom and dullness. If you add the overproducing and the mediocre work, well, I guess I'll never get back to watch US wrestling, which is sad. I used to have so much fun doing so, despite the silliness, despite the crap. Well, the utter crap is still out there with TNA of course but I'm not masochistic.

[shawmic]

I watch pretty much all WWE programming and have largely given up on everything outside of WWE. But I thought Taker-HHH sucked for the exact reasons you listed. When they went straight to the table spots and dives I thought, at least they recognize they can't do a long match so they're just going to do it big from the beginning. Then the second half was so fucking slow and miserable with the long delays between covers. Absolutely no excuse for Hunter taking forever to go for the pin several times. No comparison at all between this and the first Shawn/UT IMO.

[rovert]

No comparison at all between this and the first Shawn/UT IMO.

Or Batista/Undertaker

[Graham Crackers]

I came on here to say that this show felt more like a long episode of Raw but CodySave beat me to it. That would have been a decent ending for an episode of Raw but not for Wrestlemania. CM Punk vs Orton was the match of the night. I really liked all of the face mask/leg brace stuff in Rey vs Cody but this match would have been better on a different show. I'll echo ditch's thoughts on Taker/Triple H and that's similar to how I feel about the Taker/Michaels matches.