Kronos Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are other factors with Hogan/Andre that need to be taken into account. Andre was up to nearly 800 pounds at this point. Hogan wasn't sure if Andre was going to shoot on him and take the belt, so he was on the defensive the whole match. Then, when Hogan finally pulled off the body slam, he tore every muscle in his back. He was able to suck it up and continue, though, and finish the match with the big leg drop. The match also has a mystique about it because Andre died a week later due to complications from the slam. I think when you take all that into account, it makes for a more compelling watch. Wait, I am confused. I thought Andre died in 91 or 93? Is there another match later than Mania 3 that you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are other factors with Hogan/Andre that need to be taken into account. Andre was up to nearly 800 pounds at this point. Hogan wasn't sure if Andre was going to shoot on him and take the belt, so he was on the defensive the whole match. Then, when Hogan finally pulled off the body slam, he tore every muscle in his back. He was able to suck it up and continue, though, and finish the match with the big leg drop. The match also has a mystique about it because Andre died a week later due to complications from the slam. I think when you take all that into account, it makes for a more compelling watch. Wait, I am confused. I thought Andre died in 91 or 93? Is there another match later than Mania 3 that you mean? He's joking about the tall tales surrounding the match, especially from Hogan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Some matches fit several categories. I'll try and come with with a different match for each. I've only got 10 minutes so I can't do many details. (FWIW, I do consider Andre/Hansen a great match as well.) Must see cage match- Bret Hart vs Owen Hart. Probably the best match to make use of the escape rules. Santana vs. Valentine might qualify for the finish. Must see high flyers match- The Michinoku Pro six man from Barely Legal? The problem is that old matches don't wow and new matches aren't well paced. Must see match with blood- I'll go Hokuto/Kandori here. Must see mat work- Let me get back to this. Must see gimmick match- Sabu/Sheik vs Goto/Onita. A must see match for non-traditional reasons. A gimmick match gone wrong. Must see world title bout- Steamboat vs Flair, Clash VI. Must see 1970s match- Funk v Tsuruta Must see 1980s match- Slaughter v Iron Sheik, Boot Camp Match. Odd that this match is widely unseen while the Slaughter/Sheik feud is legendary. Must see 1990s match- Bret v Austin, WM XIII. Must see tag match- Steamboat/Youngblood v Slaughter/Iron Sheik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Must see cage match = Bret vs. Owen, SummerSlam '94. Tully vs. Magnum I Quit would be #2. Must see high flyers match = Rey vs. Eddy, Mask vs. Title, Halloween Havoc '97. Liger vs. Samurai, 4-30-92 is #2. Must see match with blood = Muta Scale. Must see mat work = Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey, 11-22-75. Must see gimmick match = Combat Toyoda vs. Megumi Kudo, 5-5-96. Must see world title bout = Flair vs. Steamboat, 5-7-89. Must see 1970s match = Funk vs. Tsuruta, 6-11-76. Must see 1980s match = Adonis & Murdoch vs. Fujinami & Inoki, 12-7-84 or Hansen vs. Andre, 9-23-81. Must see 1990s match = Hansen vs. Kobashi, 7-29-93. Must see tag match = Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue, 6-9-95. Must see six-man match = 4-20-91, 5-22-92, or 7-2-93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are other factors with Hogan/Andre that need to be taken into account. Andre was up to nearly 800 pounds at this point. Hogan wasn't sure if Andre was going to shoot on him and take the belt, so he was on the defensive the whole match. Then, when Hogan finally pulled off the body slam, he tore every muscle in his back. He was able to suck it up and continue, though, and finish the match with the big leg drop. The match also has a mystique about it because Andre died a week later due to complications from the slam. I think when you take all that into account, it makes for a more compelling watch. Wait, I am confused. I thought Andre died in 91 or 93? Is there another match later than Mania 3 that you mean? He's joking about the tall tales surrounding the match, especially from Hogan. Right, right. Good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Must see cage match There are a few. I mentioned Steamboat/Youngblood vs Slaughter/Kernodle before and I stand by that. I've seen Backlund/Slaughter get a lot of love, but I'm not sure how it fits into a list like this. War Games '92 was already mentioned as well. Something slightly off the beaten path that I would argue for is the Neidhart/Reed vs Magnum/II match from Christmas of '83 in Mid South. I thought that was an incredible match, and it did get some love, but not nearly what I would say it deserved. Must see high flyers match Sabu vs 1-2-3 Kid from Minneapolis is a good precursor to what indy wrestling would eventually become. It was one of the first post-territory matches that was really memorable. It also shows some of the missed opportunities of the '00s indies, as there's still an evil manager, there's still a DQ that works, there's still a strong face/heel dynamic. It's exciting wrestling that didn't forget its audience. Must see match with blood This is crazy broad, but because I don't know where else to put it, the ROH/CZW six-man I'd put here. I always thought it was an infinitely better match than Cage of Death, which just did nothing for me. That said, I think the idea with this category is a match that is a must-see *because* of the blood, not a match that just happens to have blood. The ROH/CZW six-man I wouldn't say that for. Maybe Slaughter/Sheik, which feels like it belongs here somewhere. Must see mat work El Dandy vs Black Warrior for sure. Must see gimmick match It's cliche I know, but both of the Shawn/Razor ladder matches should be here. Probably the two most important matches of US wrestling in the 90s in terms of changing the style. I have this sneaky suspicion that tomk is going to disagree with this point for some reason. Must see world title bout Flair/Windham from Worldwide is my pick here. I thought about Flair/Steamboat from Chi-Town, and I'd say both have their place, but the Worldwide match is my pick because it really does feel like Barry is taking the title. A match in this category I think should be the best I can think of at making you think you're really about to see a title change, only to not see one at the end. This time, I have this sneaky suspicion that jdw is going to disgree with this point for some reason. Maybe point out that fans at the time wouldn't have thought Barry would get the title at this point. And maybe he's right. But my favorite type of title match is not the one with the challenger who has been built up well, but one with someone who doesn't seem like he's at that level at first who ends up pushing the top guy to the limit and almost squeaking out an upset. Must see 1970s match How about Baba/Robinson from '76? That's one I haven't seen get much love in a while, and it's pretty incredible. I like it better than Robinson/Inoki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I'll come back to this later, but for now I will say: Must see cage match I am going underdog here and taking Edge v. Matt Hardy from Unforgiven 05. For my money it is one of the best WWE/F matches of all time and it is almost totally forgotten. A rare instance of a match where the WWE/F let the less pushed babyface give a complete and totally fuck you to the more over heel. Stretch run is great as they run through a sequence where you figure Edge and Lita are going to screw Matt Hardy out of the win multiple times. Instead Hardy gets his revenge on Lita, kicks out of Edge's finish and wins clean with a pin in the middle of the ring after a huge finishing move. Must see 70's match Bob Backlund v. Greg Valentine 60 minute draw from MSG in 79. Too lazy to look for the exact date but it is a great match, in some ways the first blowaway Backlund match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Must see gimmick match It's cliche I know, but both of the Shawn/Razor ladder matches should be here. Probably the two most important matches of US wrestling in the 90s in terms of changing the style. I have this sneaky suspicion that tomk is going to disagree with this point for some reason. I actually think something like the WM16 'Triangle Ladder Match' would be a better pick for this. Yeah, Shawn/Razor was the first major match in the style, but that tag match is the zenith for me, and the precursor to these endless multi-man ladder matches that the WWE has rolled out for years now. It's a violent, athletic, exciting and spectacular match with well defined character and a fantastic crowd. But it depends who this list is aiming towards; the general non-internet wrestling fan? (does such a thing exist anymore?) The guy just getting into Puro/Lucha/Classic wrestling who wants a guide of where to go first? The hardcore fan who wants to get any classic matches he's missed? I don't necessarily see the real point in a list like this, though it would be interesting as a Smarkschoice/DVDVR style poll. If 'Greatest Wrestler of All Time' is doable then 'Greatest Match of all Time' is fairly achievable, though 'Greatest Cage Match of all Time' or something similar would perhaps be a more manageable aim. Must see match with blood This is crazy broad, but because I don't know where else to put it, the ROH/CZW six-man I'd put here. I always thought it was an infinitely better match than Cage of Death, which just did nothing for me. Good match, but I'm not sure they achieved anything peak-ECW didn't do just as well. Joe/Necro from 2005 is a better option for me as a truly gory, violent match with a great story to boot. Plus, with the ROH/CZW match it is, a. Dependent on context a great deal, and the whole wrestling v hardcore thing that had been going on in the first half of the decade, not only between internet fans but with guys like Flair wading in. Probably the perfect time for it as well, with the Flair/Foley stuff and the ECW resurrection the year previous. That's what gives this match half of its heat, the very real disdain between fans of the two promotions. b. You probably have to watch some of the build up to get the most out of the match, which a project like this doesn't allow for (another reason why it's floored IMO) Must see cage match I am going underdog here and taking Edge v. Matt Hardy from Unforgiven 05. For my money it is one of the best WWE/F matches of all time and it is almost totally forgotten. A rare instance of a match where the WWE/F let the less pushed babyface give a complete and totally fuck you to the more over heel. Again, this a very good PPV match - but what exactly makes it must see? There's no way this is more essential than Magnum/Tully or Bret/Owen or even Wargames 92 and Shawn/Taker if we are including gimmicked cell matches. It just didn't stand out to me at the time, maybe I need to rewatch. For contemporary stuff, I'd be tempted to nominate Jacobs/Whitmer if it didn't have BJ Whitmer in it. Fuck, I hate that guy, but loved Jimmy Jacobs at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Must see cage match LCO vs Kaoru Ito & Tomoko Watanabe, AJW, 1997. Simply the best cage match I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 ^^^ Not sure I've seen that, but on a similar note, Kong/Nakano in the cage is phenomenal as I remember, I'd definitely want to see that included. Best finish to a cage match I've seen as well, with the huge dive from Bull and then sprinting out of the cage as fast as she can, instead of doing the usual suspenseful crawl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Well, let's be honest, women just do hate better than men. . You really have to see the '97 tag though. The finish is more brutal, and the match is more dramatic than the wild chaos of Bull/Aja. I preferred the tags in that feud, to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 This likely will be overly cliched: Must see high flyers match: 1996 Samurai-Ohtani Must see match with blood: Hokuto-Kandori I Must see mat work: 1969 Destroyer-Baba Must see gimmick match: Vader-Sting strap Must see world title bout: 6/94 Misawa vs Kawada Must see 1970s match: Terry vs Jumbo Must see 1980s match: 6/89 Jumbo vs Tenryu Must see 1990s match: 12/96 Misawa & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue Must see tag match: See above Must see cage match: 1992 War Games Sort of grasping at the last one. Pretty well booked, pretty well worked, pretty well heated, juiced up and "creative" (even if some of the spots were thing guys like Arn had done before). Kind of hits the marks you want in a cage match, though sustained "hate" is in there as it's hard to pull off with 10 guys each needing to do their own thing. But 10 guys... it does give you a fair amount of variety in what they do. Don't know if it's the best cage match I've seen, but it's a pretty easy one to watch every few years. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 John, have you seen Final Conflict? I couldn't remember. I can see the argument for Wargames '92 over it but it's an incredible match and probably the best "traditional" cage match I've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I have seen Final Conflict. Final Conflict better? Probably, especially when one sees all the Road To stuff that was on the DVD to build to the blow off. But it is long, sort of more traditional (in the sense of peril stretches to fill the time)... I'm wondering how easily accessable it is. The 1992 Wargames is a pretty simple match to get into. I kind of tried to balance out the list with some that have a point for being there (Sammy-Otani), are the first that jump to mind (12/96), or are accessable to what the concept is generally about. I'm not sure if Vader-Sting is the best gimmick match that I've seen. But it's pretty accessable, it's good, and it kind of opens up the mind to the notion that you don't need to have the gimmick limit you. Wargames is an easy match. It gets across a lot of cage concepts. I think if folks liked that, then you start getting them into other cage matches. I love Backlund-Sarge, and think the are some really great "cagey" things in the match. But I also think people sort of need to get to the point they like Bob first, and maybe see some other cage matches from the era, and probably even need to see the earlier Bob-Sarge in Philly. Wargames... it's kind of a match you can go in cold. It helps to know how some of the specific folks are fueding, but even without it, the match pretty much loads up the action, spots and juice. Don't know if that makes sense? If the list was about "best", my answers probably would be different. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Sting/Vader is an easy pick. The only problem I have is that I feel like I have to pick one, and they had several equally great matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Must see high flyers match: Even were I not critical of it, and loved it as much as most, I'm not sure if Ohtani/Samurai fits the bill as "high fliers" match. I still think Rey/Eddy is the closest we have to perfect "high flying" juniors math, as oposed to just a spectacular straight-ahead spotfest. Must see match with blood: Have to agree with Hokuto/Kandori. Must see mat work: I'd have Destroyer/Baba as a "must see '60s match" rather than specifically for matwork. I'd put the Han/Tamura series and Tamura/Kohsaka. Must see gimmick match: Thunderqueen? HBK/Razor I is very important in terms of WWF/E gimmick matches. TLC I (SummerSlam) is too. I'm not as big a Vader/Sting fan as others, really. Must see world title bout: Of course it's Misawa vs Kawada. Must see 1970s match: Again I've gotta agree with John on Terry/Jumbo. Must see 1980s match: The best match is Jumbo/Tenryu. One of the Flair/Steamboat matches have to be seen for reputation, my favourite being Clash. Maeda/Takada is vital for Japan. Must see 1990s match: Must see tag match: One is 6/95 the other is 12/96. Must see cage match: See previous post about LCO vs. Ito/Watanabe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Isn't Shawn/Razor eclipsed by the Hardys/E&C/Dudley Boyz in terms of significance though? Significance might be the wrong word here, though. What Shawn/Razor did, while awesome at the time, was expounded upon exponentially by the three tag teams. The beginning element was (IIRC) No Mercy 1999. I would be hard pressed in a choice between the originators or the death defying six. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I'm going to try and not go with the obvious and just pick matches that I really liked: Must see cage match Austin Idol vs Jerry Lawler Hair vs Hair Must see high flyers match: I guess I'll go safe and say the 10 man from Michinoku Pro These days Must see match with blood: El Hijo Del Santo vs La Parka from Monterrey Must see mat work: El Dandy vs Javier Llanes from 1994. Must see gimmick match: Hacksaw Duggan vs Ted Dibiase Multi stips match Must see world title bout: Don't know what to put here really. Let's go with HBK vs Mankind from Mind games 96. Must see 1970s match: Any of the Sheik/Abby vs Funks matches. Must see 1980s match: Jerry Lawler vs Terry Funk No DQ Must see 1990s match From UWF Hamada in Japan: Robin Hood & Los Ninja Turtles vs. Shu El Guerrero/Jose Luis Feliciano/El Texano/Black Terry/Ricky Boy (9/12/91) Must see tag match: Jerry Lawler and Dutch Mantell vs Buddy Landell and Bill Dundee Texas death match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Isn't Shawn/Razor eclipsed by the Hardys/E&C/Dudley Boyz in terms of significance though? Significance might be the wrong word here, though. What Shawn/Razor did, while awesome at the time, was expounded upon exponentially by the three tag teams. The beginning element was (IIRC) No Mercy 1999. I would be hard pressed in a choice between the originators or the death defying six. Shawn vs Razor were two excellent wrestling matches involving a ladder gimmick and made sense. Hardys/E&C/Dudleys were stunt shows whose only apparent goal was to fall from high places onto tables. It's masturbatory garbage wrestling. Spectacular, yes, but that was it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am a bit more limited in my exposure to Japanese stuff than most, so this will be restricted to stuff I have actually seen and know. Must see cage match: Mangum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit", Starrcade 85 I'm playing a pretty straight bat here. I will mention the Rick Rude cage matchs vs. Warrior and Piper in 1989 though. Always enjoyed those, but mainly remember them for Rude's rights coming down. I will ALSO mention the DiBiase vs. Savage cage match from *I think* Wrestlefest '88, best kayfabe-era WWF one I can think of. Actually, the real answer is, as jdw said, Wargames '92. Wargames '91 is pretty incredible too. Must see high flyers match: The Rockers vs. The Orient Express, I think it's the one from Royal Rumble '91, but it's been a while. Must see match with blood: Hacksaw Duggan vs Ted Dibiase, with all the stipulations, from Mid-South '84. Must see mat work: Bockwinkel vs. Billy Robinson from AJPW '80. Must see gimmick match: Hard to look past Vader vs. Sting strap match for me, but I'll try to keep it interesting ... ummm ... How about Royal Rumble 92 or maybe HHH vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000? Must see world title bout: Hard to look past Steamboat/ Flair at Clash VI for this. Must see 1980s match: Ditto Must see 1990s match: I'm going to keep pimping Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude, Ironman match from Beach Blast '92 Also a big big fan of both Savage vs. Flair from Wrestlemania 8 and, for the all the horseshit, Savage vs. Warrior from SS 92. Must see tag match: Luger/Sting vs. The Steiners from Superbrawl I (91) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am a bit more limited in my exposure to Japanese stuff than most, so this will be restricted to stuff I have actually seen and know. Must see cage match: Mangum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit", Starrcade 85 I'm playing a pretty straight bat here. I will mention the Rick Rude cage matchs vs. Warrior and Piper in 1989 though. Always enjoyed those, but mainly remember them for Rude's rights coming down. I will ALSO mention the DiBiase vs. Savage cage match from *I think* Wrestlefest '88, best kayfabe-era WWF one I can think of. Actually, the real answer is, as jdw said, Wargames '92. Wargames '91 is pretty incredible too. Wrestlefest '88 was Hogan and Andre in the cage. Don't know if you are refering to the MSG Savage/Dibiase match or the one from Philly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 It's the one where the fan jumps up onto the cage and tries to attack Virgil. The only copy of it I have is on the old Macho Madness VHS. I remember DiBiase vs. Savage was cut from the VHS Wrestlefest 88, so this is why I wasn't sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Isn't Shawn/Razor eclipsed by the Hardys/E&C/Dudley Boyz in terms of significance though? Significance might be the wrong word here, though. What Shawn/Razor did, while awesome at the time, was expounded upon exponentially by the three tag teams. The beginning element was (IIRC) No Mercy 1999. I would be hard pressed in a choice between the originators or the death defying six. Shawn vs Razor were two excellent wrestling matches involving a ladder gimmick and made sense. Hardys/E&C/Dudleys were stunt shows whose only apparent goal was to fall from high places onto tables. It's masturbatory garbage wrestling. Spectacular, yes, but that was it. TLC III wasn't. There was better story/timing and drama in this than the other matches. It easily eclipsed most other ladder and TLC matches. As a sidenote, this is the match where I have heard that Benoit legit injured his neck badly on the dive to the table outside of the ring which helped lead to neck surgery. Of course, DK vs Bret would be the ladder match to put on a set like this but I can't find footage of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Isn't Shawn/Razor eclipsed by the Hardys/E&C/Dudley Boyz in terms of significance though? Significance might be the wrong word here, though. What Shawn/Razor did, while awesome at the time, was expounded upon exponentially by the three tag teams. The beginning element was (IIRC) No Mercy 1999. I would be hard pressed in a choice between the originators or the death defying six. I think the later ladder / tlc stuff was pretty clusterfuckish. I think the last time I watch Shawn-Razor, it didn't come across as a cluster, instead a nice mix of decent stunts and campy fun. TLC takes only a little while into the match to remind me, "That's right... this is why I hated all this crap." None of that's due to any soft spot for Shawn. I still don't care much for him, and it would always be nice to add one of his matches to the Overrated pile. But that one... it kind of holds up, especially in the context of the time. It spawned a bunch of shitty matches, and fucked up the health of a lot of workers. But it still is pretty watchable in context. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am a bit more limited in my exposure to Japanese stuff than most Jerry: I would get Will's 1993 Yearbook set. The 1996 was released earlier, but 1993 might be a better introduction to some of the folks who are sort of in their prime around 1996 (i.e. AJPW's Four Corners and NJPW's Hash). It also has a pre-Monday Night Wars era US coverage, which probably is a good contrast to 1996 where the US is starting to change. Anyway, it's an easy way to get a variety of Japan, in a way that isn't hammering you over the head with just one wrestler or promotion. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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