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Biggest fall from grace


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As far as Bundy and DiBiase goes, I wonder if that was just a WWF philosophy, where you get one run and only one run as a top heel, and then you're cycled down the cards for eternity. Looking back, Savage is really the only heel who had two runs as a main event heel, and the second run (against Warrior) was still lower profile than the run with Hogan two years earlier. Andre's run was longer than most (from early '87 to mid '88) but even he wasn't immune; once he was out of the World title picture, he was a midcard guy. It's a philosophy that didn't really change until the mid 90's, when there were fewer wrestlers to program at the top of a show, but more PPV events that required main eventers.

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They had to do a Yoko feud. That was the big dream match. The two big fat monsters from 93 finally clashing. I'm more disappointed they did not meet at Wrestlemania 12.

I agree they should have done it eventually at a IYH PPV, but Vader should have killed a JTTS at WM. I remember how they built Ludvig Borga at SummerSlam 93 by having him kill Marty Jannetty. Jannetty made him look like a god. Vader should have killed a guy who could make him look huge and brutal, like Bob Holly, instead of feuding with a fat guy from the get-go. Of course, him being thrown into a random 6 man in which he had to sell for old Jake Roberts and bump for Ahmed Johnson made things even worse. Way to make him non-special already.

What was the reason for turning it into a 6 man ? Was that because Yoko's health was getting bad (getting way too fat for his own good) at this point ?

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More than anything it was the stiff style that hurt him. The WWF guys weren't used to it and Shawn and Taker complained to management. Cornette tells the story of Vader coming out of the ring crying after a match with Shawn after Shawn told him he'd have him fired if he kept working so stiff. Cornette said Leon was a real sensitive guy who took everything personally.

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I've always been impressed with Vader's level of athletisism, despite being somewhere between 350 and 450lbs for most of his career. Given the right opponent, Vader will always sell like a pro. I agree with what Dr Reverend Victator said about Vader not being a fit for what WWF intended. As others have mentioned, Vader is an extremely stiff worker and while his work is perfect for strong style (and very respected), a lot of the WWF guys took offence to it, namely the Clique.

 

I think if WWF kept Vader out of the World Title picture, until a worker who could compliment his style was champion (Undertaker, Bret Hart, Sycho Sid), then his run might have been a success. Although none of this would have happened due to the Clique's influence backstage.

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Don't forget Shawn stomping Vader in the face and throwing a hissy because Vader was positioned wrong for an elbowdrop.

Which I never understood, because that looked like it was all Shawn's fault. Vader was down selling, and clearly nowhere near the position you'd need him in for an elbow drop. But Shawn climbed up onto the top rope anyway. What the fuck was he expecting Vader to do? Sit up, roll over, and then lay back down in a completely different part of the ring and sell like he was out again? That made no sense, and I wonder if Shawn did it on purpose to prove that Vader doesn't know how to work or some bullshit like that.
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I've always been impressed with Vader's level of athletisism, despite being somewhere between 350 and 450lbs for most of his career.

What's always impressed me even more, was how athletic he was at his weight, while being over 40 years old. He was 41 in his last WWF year, then went to AJPW/NOAH and took crazy bumps for a few more years.

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As far as Bundy and DiBiase goes, I wonder if that was just a WWF philosophy, where you get one run and only one run as a top heel, and then you're cycled down the cards for eternity. Looking back, Savage is really the only heel who had two runs as a main event heel, and the second run (against Warrior) was still lower profile than the run with Hogan two years earlier. Andre's run was longer than most (from early '87 to mid '88) but even he wasn't immune; once he was out of the World title picture, he was a midcard guy. It's a philosophy that didn't really change until the mid 90's, when there were fewer wrestlers to program at the top of a show, but more PPV events that required main eventers.

Hell, how many guys got more than one big run against Backlund? Don Muraco...anyone else?

 

I wonder how many guys got multiple runs against Sammartino. 13 non-consecutive years on top...feels like you'd have to go back to someone eventually, but I don't actually know off-hand. Might have to look at Cawthon's site when I get some time.

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How about Adrian Adonis going from being in the #3 match at WM III to feuding with Greg Gagne over the AWA TV title by the end of the same year?

No place else for him to go in the shape he was in, IMO. Didn't Vince fire him for not dressing in company-mandated attire while travelling?

 

Verne brought him in because (a) they were desperate to have name talent on their cards and he was that (along with Bob Orton, Tommy Rich and Dick Slater, who came in during that time period, as I recall), and (B) Verne knew what he could do from past experience during his two kick-ass years in the AWA from 1980-82.

 

Adonis was clearly unhappy he was in the AWA at that time, though. Some of his promos are so sarcastic that it doesn't even pretend to hide the contempt for some of the towns he's been booked in.

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As far as Bundy and DiBiase goes, I wonder if that was just a WWF philosophy, where you get one run and only one run as a top heel, and then you're cycled down the cards for eternity. Looking back, Savage is really the only heel who had two runs as a main event heel, and the second run (against Warrior) was still lower profile than the run with Hogan two years earlier. Andre's run was longer than most (from early '87 to mid '88) but even he wasn't immune; once he was out of the World title picture, he was a midcard guy. It's a philosophy that didn't really change until the mid 90's, when there were fewer wrestlers to program at the top of a show, but more PPV events that required main eventers.

Hell, how many guys got more than one big run against Backlund? Don Muraco...anyone else?

 

I wonder how many guys got multiple runs against Sammartino. 13 non-consecutive years on top...feels like you'd have to go back to someone eventually, but I don't actually know off-hand. Might have to look at Cawthon's site when I get some time.

 

DiBiase did get a second go against Hogan during the whole Zeus feud.

 

And again at the "Survivor" Survivor Series battle (and again at Wrestlemania IX). He was always a good go-to guy for a match or mini-feud against Hogan because the characters are such natural enemies.

 

And I'm sure they were gearing up for another push for him in 91 with Sherri, but two things happened: first of all, Ric Flair came to town and secondly, he found himself as a tag champ when the hastily thrown together team of himself and IRS after Road Warrior Hawk failed a drug test.

 

If Flair hadn't turned up, I'm fairly sure Ted would have had one more run on top of the card, because he had good chemistry with the top faces of that time (Savage, Bret and also with Piper). I'm not saying it definitely would have happened, but if you look at the skits and stuff from around that time, they were definitely gearing up for a push of some sort for him.

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Surprised no-one has mentioned "Superstar" Billy Graham who went from WWF champion in 1978 to being pronounced dead by Gorilla Monsoon as he had fallen so far off the radar or Bob Backlund who also drifted into obscurity after his first run as WWF champion. Slaughter's fall was really faster in 1984 than in 1991 too.

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Don't forget Shawn stomping Vader in the face and throwing a hissy because Vader was positioned wrong for an elbowdrop.

Which I never understood, because that looked like it was all Shawn's fault. Vader was down selling, and clearly nowhere near the position you'd need him in for an elbow drop. But Shawn climbed up onto the top rope anyway. What the fuck was he expecting Vader to do? Sit up, roll over, and then lay back down in a completely different part of the ring and sell like he was out again? That made no sense, and I wonder if Shawn did it on purpose to prove that Vader doesn't know how to work or some bullshit like that.

 

The the elbowdrop was totally Vader's fault as the idea was suppose to be, Shawn doing the elbow drop with Vader moving. Then Shawn lands on his feet and hits whatever the next spot was, i believe Vader has confirmed this in one of his shoot interviews.

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How about Adrian Adonis going from being in the #3 match at WM III to feuding with Greg Gagne over the AWA TV title by the end of the same year?

No place else for him to go in the shape he was in, IMO. Didn't Vince fire him for not dressing in company-mandated attire while travelling?

 

Verne brought him in because (a) they were desperate to have name talent on their cards and he was that (along with Bob Orton, Tommy Rich and Dick Slater, who came in during that time period, as I recall), and (B) Verne knew what he could do from past experience during his two kick-ass years in the AWA from 1980-82.

 

Adonis was clearly unhappy he was in the AWA at that time, though. Some of his promos are so sarcastic that it doesn't even pretend to hide the contempt for some of the towns he's been booked in.

 

 

Adonis getting fired is probably second only to the Savage Situation on the list of things nobody ever provided a clear answer to. From reading between the lines it comes off like he hated the Adorable gimmick (maybe even that it was punishment for his increasing weight gain), and the dress code violation was just a cover to fire a guy who was unhappy. Considering it was right after WMIII, I always assumed he told them to go fuck themselves after he got his big payday.

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I wonder how many guys got multiple runs against Sammartino. 13 non-consecutive years on top...feels like you'd have to go back to someone eventually, but I don't actually know off-hand. Might have to look at Cawthon's site when I get some time.

Eight that I came up with. Hans Mortier, Waldo Von Erich, Gorilla Monsoon, Killer Kowalski, Nikolai Volkoff, George Steele, Ivan Koloff and Superstar Billy Graham.

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How about Adrian Adonis going from being in the #3 match at WM III to feuding with Greg Gagne over the AWA TV title by the end of the same year?

No place else for him to go in the shape he was in, IMO. Didn't Vince fire him for not dressing in company-mandated attire while travelling?

 

Verne brought him in because (a) they were desperate to have name talent on their cards and he was that (along with Bob Orton, Tommy Rich and Dick Slater, who came in during that time period, as I recall), and (B) Verne knew what he could do from past experience during his two kick-ass years in the AWA from 1980-82.

 

Adonis was clearly unhappy he was in the AWA at that time, though. Some of his promos are so sarcastic that it doesn't even pretend to hide the contempt for some of the towns he's been booked in.

 

 

Adonis getting fired is probably second only to the Savage Situation on the list of things nobody ever provided a clear answer to. From reading between the lines it comes off like he hated the Adorable gimmick (maybe even that it was punishment for his increasing weight gain), and the dress code violation was just a cover to fire a guy who was unhappy. Considering it was right after WMIII, I always assumed he told them to go fuck themselves after he got his big payday.

 

I found his only WWF appearance after Wrestlemania 3. Seemed like they were setting up a feud with Brutus Beefcake. It did seem like Vince was burying him on commentary.
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The the elbowdrop was totally Vader's fault as the idea was suppose to be, Shawn doing the elbow drop with Vader moving. Then Shawn lands on his feet and hits whatever the next spot was, i believe Vader has confirmed this in one of his shoot interviews.

Maybe, but it still looked awfully weird. Vader was down on the mat and clearly not in the right position for the move, but Shawn climbs up anyway. Like I said, what was Vader supposed to do there? Wake up, roll over, and then fall back unconscious again? Especially when the fix is so obvious, all Shawn had to do was pick him up and then knock him back down in the right place.
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How about Adrian Adonis going from being in the #3 match at WM III to feuding with Greg Gagne over the AWA TV title by the end of the same year?

No place else for him to go in the shape he was in, IMO. Didn't Vince fire him for not dressing in company-mandated attire while travelling?

 

Verne brought him in because (a) they were desperate to have name talent on their cards and he was that (along with Bob Orton, Tommy Rich and Dick Slater, who came in during that time period, as I recall), and (B) Verne knew what he could do from past experience during his two kick-ass years in the AWA from 1980-82.

 

Adonis was clearly unhappy he was in the AWA at that time, though. Some of his promos are so sarcastic that it doesn't even pretend to hide the contempt for some of the towns he's been booked in.

 

 

Adonis getting fired is probably second only to the Savage Situation on the list of things nobody ever provided a clear answer to. From reading between the lines it comes off like he hated the Adorable gimmick (maybe even that it was punishment for his increasing weight gain), and the dress code violation was just a cover to fire a guy who was unhappy. Considering it was right after WMIII, I always assumed he told them to go fuck themselves after he got his big payday.

 

I found his only WWF appearance after Wrestlemania 3. Seemed like they were setting up a feud with Brutus Beefcake. It did seem like Vince was burying him on commentary.

 

 

They were clearly building a feud since he accidentally cut Beefcake's hair during a six man tag match, then Brutus cemented his face turn by helping Piper shave Adonis's head (poorly). Knowing Vince like we do now, it's easy to believe he was probably disgusted at Adonis's weight gain and wanted to either force him to quit or find something to fire him over.

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The the elbowdrop was totally Vader's fault as the idea was suppose to be, Shawn doing the elbow drop with Vader moving. Then Shawn lands on his feet and hits whatever the next spot was, i believe Vader has confirmed this in one of his shoot interviews.

Maybe, but it still looked awfully weird. Vader was down on the mat and clearly not in the right position for the move, but Shawn climbs up anyway. Like I said, what was Vader supposed to do there? Wake up, roll over, and then fall back unconscious again? Especially when the fix is so obvious, all Shawn had to do was pick him up and then knock him back down in the right place.

 

Sorry maybe i wasn't clear enough with my description, all Vader had to do was roll away when Shawn jumped of the top rope. If Shawn was planning on hitting the elbow i imagine he would have, as he's hit it on other wrestlers with out issue when they have been out of position. But he wasn't planning on hitting it, so Vader could of been any were in the ring and it wouldn't have mattered as long as he moved when shawn jumped. Shawn jumped with the idea of being in the elbow drop position in the air and then changing his position to land on this feet which he did. Because Vader hadn't moved he ended up looking like a dick on a major ppv which caused his temper tantrum.

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Sorry maybe i wasn't clear enough with my description, all Vader had to do was roll away when Shawn jumped of the top rope. If Shawn was planning on hitting the elbow i imagine he would have, as he's hit it on other wrestlers with out issue when they have been out of position. But he wasn't planning on hitting it, so Vader could of been any were in the ring and it wouldn't have mattered as long as he moved when shawn jumped. Shawn jumped with the idea of being in the elbow drop position in the air and then changing his position to land on this feet which he did. Because Vader hadn't moved he ended up looking like a dick on a major ppv which caused his temper tantrum.

Yeah, I know, but it still looks fishy. See for yourself. The whole spot starts around 4 minutes in. Vader takes the bump at 4:10, and around 4:15 you can see him shifting his body around a little bit on the mat. The way he's positioned, he's clearly set up for the elbow drop from the bottom-right turnbuckle. But Shawn, inexplicably, goes and climbs the top-right turnbuckle. That's a pure fuckup on Shawn's part, because Vader isn't positioned anywhere near where he would need to be in order to make the move work when Shawn's jumping from that corner. Shawn is much too polished a ring general to make a rookie mistake like that, and that's why I think it just might've been deliberate. Vader doesn't know what's going on, and Shawn doesn't even really give him enough time to dodge before landing on his feet and stomping him in the face. (Also, why land on his feet at all? Just squash him with the fuckin' elbow, if you're intent on stiffing him here. Landing on his feet just broadcasts "Hey everybody, we fucked up!" to anyone remotely smart.) It's all the more apparent because they repeat the spot later (at about 3:45), with Vader landing in the exact same position as before, only this time Shawn climbs the correct corner and hits the move successfully.
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Sorry maybe i wasn't clear enough with my description, all Vader had to do was roll away when Shawn jumped of the top rope. If Shawn was planning on hitting the elbow i imagine he would have, as he's hit it on other wrestlers with out issue when they have been out of position. But he wasn't planning on hitting it, so Vader could of been any were in the ring and it wouldn't have mattered as long as he moved when shawn jumped. Shawn jumped with the idea of being in the elbow drop position in the air and then changing his position to land on this feet which he did. Because Vader hadn't moved he ended up looking like a dick on a major ppv which caused his temper tantrum.

Yeah, I know, but it still looks fishy. See for yourself. The whole spot starts around 4 minutes in. Vader takes the bump at 4:10, and around 4:15 you can see him shifting his body around a little bit on the mat. The way he's positioned, he's clearly set up for the elbow drop from the bottom-right turnbuckle. But Shawn, inexplicably, goes and climbs the top-right turnbuckle. That's a pure fuckup on Shawn's part, because Vader isn't positioned anywhere near where he would need to be in order to make the move work when Shawn's jumping from that corner. Shawn is much too polished a ring general to make a rookie mistake like that, and that's why I think it just might've been deliberate. Vader doesn't know what's going on, and Shawn doesn't even really give him enough time to dodge before landing on his feet and stomping him in the face. (Also, why land on his feet at all? Just squash him with the fuckin' elbow, if you're intent on stiffing him here. Landing on his feet just broadcasts "Hey everybody, we fucked up!" to anyone remotely smart.) It's all the more apparent because they repeat the spot later (at about 3:45), with Vader landing in the exact same position as before, only this time Shawn climbs the correct corner and hits the move successfully.

 

You right that vader positioned himself to take the elbow drop from the bottom right turnbuckle. But watch Shawn after the clothesline, he has his back to Vader makes the sign for the elbow drop and climbs up without looking were Vader is. I don't know what you mean "to make the move work", as i said in my other post this elbow drop was never going to hit so it not important if ether guy is out of position. As for giving him time to dodge, most good wrestlers will wait for there opponent to jump off the ropes before they move. I don't know how much more time Shawn is suppose to give, giving that he has to obey the law's of gravity like every one else. Also when he jumped off the rope with the idea that he was going to land on his feet. He had about one second in mid air to realise Vader wasn't going to move. So going from an elbow drop position to landing on your feet and back to drop an elbow, just wasn't going to happen. Also don't forget the match was laid out before hand with both guys and an agent going over it with them. So Vader should of known what was going to happen for the first elbow, but he forgot the spot and he has gone on record to say it's his fault.

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Come on Shawn was just being an un professional prick like he was all the time back then. The stiff kick to the head is precious coming from a guy who complained about Vader working too stiff. Shawn was just unreliable and not that good in the ring at this time. 1996 Shawn Michaels is one of the most overrated wrestler ever.

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