Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only

Guys you "should" like but don't?


NintendoLogic

Recommended Posts

Part of the problem I have with this note is that I sync up pretty well with a lot of the opinions here. That's kind of why I'm here.

 

Elsewhere on the internet, I could say Kurt Angle, but that would make no sense here.

 

Maybe.. Okay,

 

I'm not a huge fan of 98 Steve Austin. I like 92-96 Steve Austin. I like 01 Steve Austin. I'm not a huge fan of 98 Steve Austin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 152
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I guess I'm one of the bigger Windham fans out there, so I might as well weigh in.

 

I find it hard to figure him being called "overrated" as such, because most opinions I have read rating him highly have I think a fairly accurate grasp on the phases of his career :

 

He was awesome in the "classic" mid to late 80s period, ending when he left for the WWF to become the Widowmaker. Widowmaker didn't really get a lot to do, he had a decent match in all Japan with Jumbo, came back to WCW and kind of spun his wheels for a while. He got back on track with the feud with Doom, then picked up speed after that and was pretty much on fire through the feud with the Dangerous Alliance up until the heel turn. Apart from a few spots such as the great matches with Scorpio, he wasn't overwhelming in that run up until the match with Flair where the injuries finally caught up with him and he took time off. After that, he was pretty much a spent force apart from a few sparks such as the Hennig tags or the Corino match. Everybody who praises him acknowledges which were the strong periods in his career and which were the bad, including the man himself. I always considered Barry's comments about himself being "overrated" were not so much "I was never as good as people thought I was" but rather "I know how much was expected of me but I don't feel I achieved as much as I could have". Yes, there are long bad stretches in his career, but the good parts are so good and there are so many great matches, I feel ultimately he is worthy of the praise he gets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

* Taped fist match against Pillman at SuperBrawl I?

 

Well it's not the best match on that card. I mean it's solid but it's not a bona-fide classic or anything. I'd expect Windham vs. Pillman to be a ***** affair for how much both guys are praised and it was a ***1/2 at best. Windham had a taped fist for about 3 years didn't he. That was pretty funny.

 

* SuperBrawl II tag with Dustin against Austin and Zbyszko?

 

It's better a lot better than the average tag match involving Dustin from the period. But possibly because of just how hot the rest of the card is (Rude/ Steamboat, Liger/ Pillman) it doesn't stand out for me. I don't recall thinking it was any better than Arn/ Eaton vs. the Steiners that followed it. Then again, Superbrawl II is a legit top 5 ppv of all time, so that's not taking away from that match. Yeah, I'll give you that one as a great match.

 

* His performance in both the War Games '91 and '92 matches?

 

I'd have to rewatch them for Windham's specific performances, but they are both bonfa-fide ***** matches in my book. I remember Steamboat and Arn being the MVPs for the 92 match. And can't think of '91 without thinking of the Sid/ Pillman spot.

 

* Tag with Dustin against Rude and Austin at the GAB in '92?

 

GAB '92 is one of the dullest shows I can remember seeing because it is just so straight-laced -- as if JR was turning the clock back to the early 70s or something -- and watts was pushing MVC to the moon. I just seem to remember there being a shit ton of bland matwork on this show and I can't remember that match being anything tbh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barry was absolutely an underachiever. Had he lived up to his talent, he'd be remembered as the top wrestler of his generation and possibly the greatest American-born wrestler of all time.

 

* Taped fist match against Pillman at SuperBrawl I?

 

Well it's not the best match on that card. I mean it's solid but it's not a bona-fide classic or anything. I'd expect Windham vs. Pillman to be a ***** affair for how much both guys are praised and it was a ***1/2 at best. Windham had a taped fist for about 3 years didn't he. That was pretty funny.

Well, the thing about Pillman/Windham is that it's a sub-10 minute match. It was never really pimped to be a ***** match by anyone. It was always pointed to as a really fun match considering the time constraints, and a good use of the gimmick.

 

The best Windham/Pillman happened on the 04/06/91 episode of Pro, and the match was laid out in a way to make Pillman look really good.

 

* SuperBrawl II tag with Dustin against Austin and Zbyszko?

 

It's better a lot better than the average tag match involving Dustin from the period. But possibly because of just how hot the rest of the card is (Rude/ Steamboat, Liger/ Pillman) it doesn't stand out for me. I don't recall thinking it was any better than Arn/ Eaton vs. the Steiners that followed it. Then again, Superbrawl II is a legit top 5 ppv of all time, so that's not taking away from that match. Yeah, I'll give you that one as a great match.

SuperBrawl II is a great PPV. I'd even put it ahead of Bash '89 as an overall show. I think from a purely in-ring perspective, it's the best PPV ever. I also happen to think this is the best match of the night. Pillman/Liger I can understand being wowed by. I don't agree with the opinion that it's the better match, but I understand it. It's more different for the time.

 

* His performance in both the War Games '91 and '92 matches?

 

I'd have to rewatch them for Windham's specific performances, but they are both bonfa-fide ***** matches in my book. I remember Steamboat and Arn being the MVPs for the 92 match. And can't think of '91 without thinking of the Sid/ Pillman spot.

'92 he was good, but not way better than anyone surrounding him. '91 I thought Pillman and Windham had the best stuff of the match. The Sid/Pillman spot gets remembered because it's the finish, but there's way more to the match than that.

 

* Tag with Dustin against Rude and Austin at the GAB in '92?

 

GAB '92 is one of the dullest shows I can remember seeing because it is just so straight-laced -- as if JR was turning the clock back to the early 70s or something -- and watts was pushing MVC to the moon. I just seem to remember there being a shit ton of bland matwork on this show and I can't remember that match being anything tbh.

Bash '92 was dull, but consider the context. Watts was trying to change the wrestling style in WCW. The feeling was that wrestling had lost its way and that they needed to re-educate the audience that holds and matwork mattered and were more important. It was known at the time that it would take a while for this approach to pay off, but it was necessary, because the constant top this mentality had its limits. In hindsight, he was right, and all of wrestling would be better off now if holds mattered. Anyway, Vader/Sting is the best match of the show, but I thought the Windham/Dustin vs Austin/Rude tag was the highlight of the tournament, to a point where it surprised me how much better it was than I remembered when I watched it recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought Barry said he was an underachiever not overrated.

I'm going from the RF Video shoot interview. At one point the interviewer asks him to name the most overrated wrestler he can think of. Barry pauses for thought, then says he will have to get back to that question. Later on in the interview, Barry is discussing his comeback as the Stalker, and mentioning how out of shape he was, then adds "In fact, further to your earlier question about the most overrated guys ... I'd have to say myself."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shawn Michaels

 

Never was quite the mark for him that my fellow sheet readers were back in the day. Didn't like his comeback at all, other than his jobbing to Taker twice. Liked his AWA stuck. Rockers were a mixed bag for him, perhaps because they were stuck in WWF Tag Style when it would have been more interesting to see them down in Crockett. Singles Shawn... eh. The Shawn Show just never did a ton for me.

 

Kurt Angle

 

Liked the goofy character early. Didn't care for Killer Kurt during the stronger heelish run in the WWE. His ring work had the tools to appeal to me, but his brain was pretty much the biggest jerkoff worker of the era. Had to love his getting laid out, the opponent heading to the top, and Super Kurt magically being fine to hop off the mat, run over and bound up the ropes to his a cool move. Or shit like the match with Shane.

 

Kenta Kobashi

 

Enjoyed young Kobashi through 1993ish and on into 1994 to a degree. Over time they basically let him do his thing, and he got more masturbatory in the ring. Hard to pin down exactly when he started to annoy me, but the TC match with Doc going 40+ minutes really struck me as being just excessive. Which would be the word that sticks with me through most of the rest of his career. In a sense, Kobashi the bridge between Flair's I've Got Stuff To Do style and the modern spot-o-rama style.

 

Bruiser Brody

 

Well, lots of people don't like him now. Just toss him out here as one of the early folks to think he wasn't as good as folks pimped him up to be.

 

Ric Flair

 

Great wrestler on a certain level. I really don't need to see another of his matches, though I suspect I'll see pleny of them since they pop up on everything.

 

Dory Funk Jr.

 

Yeah... boring far too often. It's not just because Terry was so non-boring. There *are* some watchable Dory matches/performances that you stumble upon, like Dory vs Horst. You kind of wish there was more of that out there like that.

 

Don Muraco

 

I'm trying to think of any match of his where he was fully enaged for the entire match, rather than looking for stretches to take off. As frustrating of a wrestler as there ever has been since he was so gifted at just about everything in the ring, but really looked to get by doing the least possible. A good counter argument to being tired of Flair: at least with Ric you know you're going to get the Flair Show where he's Got Stuff To Do and Keeps It Moving Along. Ric's problem isn't laziness in the ring, but over familarity to the point that "new opponents" in his prime don't really bring much out "new" in Ric, but just shades of the Flair Show. I've been worn down and bored by the mass of Flair matches. In contrast, Don didn't give a shit enough to produce a mass of great matches to eventually get bored of. The thing is... Don was talented enough to have better matches.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barry Windham was an outstanding pro wrestler on natural gifts alone. It came really easy for him to be great, and I think if he had huge dedication to wrestling, he would probably be remembered as the best wrestler that ever lived. Everything he did looked so effortless, and he had amazing agility for a guy his size. The glassy eyed selling, the suplexes and DDTs, the lariat ... I really don't see what's not to like. In some cases, I can see the point being made even if I don't agree with it. Barry Windham criticism has always been something that completely baffled me.

 

Yeah, I agree with this. I had written on another board a while back that I thought Windham was just about the most natural looking pro-wrestler I'd ever seen, and the next time I watch a bunch of Windham matches I doubt I'll change my mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This kinda crosses over into MMA a little I suppose, but I feel like I have been told I am supposed to care about every little move Brock Lesnar makes for the better part of a decade, and I never did. I never understood his appeal in wrestling, and I feel like he has gotten a disproportionate amount of attention from the hardcores because of TOO MUCH COVERAGE in the WON.

 

During his WWE run, he came in and was pushed to the top right away for reasons I never really understood, and he has been out of wrestling for seven years, yet his name and WWE run have been discussed in some fashion in what seems like almost every WON since. When Dave starts in on Lesnar, that's always my clue that I've encountered a skippable section of the WON. When Lesnar is around, he dominates conversation, and when he's not around, he is talked about far more than anyone else who is not around.

 

I just never cared and never understood what made him special.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about Windham that strikes me is how little charisma he had. There's just a void there where there was supposed to passion and will. I think that's why he wasn't embraced by the fans the way he has been by hardcores. There was never really the feeling that Barry Windham cared about what was going on. It always seemed like he was going through the motions, though they were beautiful motions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The '88 run, as well as it's regarded, really only had one standout match (Dusty at Bash '88), and even that isn't really a consensus good match. So there have been some matches that have disappointed. But there aren't many guys who have worked primarily in the U.S. whose best stuff is far and away better than his.

You're selling him short on standout matches, especially since the period being referred to really covers the turn through his departure from the company in '89. Leading up to the turn, the two tag title switches with Arn/Tully were great. The Bigelow match at Starrcade was really good and there are also some tags building it up that I remember liking. The Gilbert match and subsequent tag with Steamboat and Flair are excellent, as is the title loss to Luger.

 

The Dusty match is easily the standout individual Windham performance and we can go back and forth about the specifics of just how good the matches I mentioned were but I think you're selling his resume for that run short.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eghads, Jon... we're talking about the UFC-Fox deal over in the Meltzer thread. Just the thing for your insight, and you're slumming in this thread talking about BW?!?! :)

 

John

Sorry. I'm doing this 80's wrestling book and am on a real wrestling kick. I probably shouldn't share too many opinions or risk offending all the Windham fans. I like to watch Windham, I do. I have one of those mammoth Windham collections. Maybe that's the problem? I find isolating one wrestler like that makes it hard not to get a little sick of him after a disc or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was focusing specifically on matches from when he was a heel during that run. So April 1988 through the end of the year. Taking the larger picture into account, I do agree with you.

 

There are things from Windham I do like at that time. I enjoyed the Sting and Bigelow matches too, but I also think they were both a step down from what they could have been, and not as good as people expected them to be at the time. I would say the Luger match at Chi-Town exceeded expectations in some ways, and fell short in others. Such an odd match, because Luger gave a terrific and inspired individual performance, but Windham's selling of his broken hand took it down a little. Still, that match is really fun.

 

The biggest strength of that run is that it's probably the only time Barry was a star on par with Sting and Luger. His comebacks, while filled with good matches, had him in more of a "good hand", Arn Anderson-type role. 1988 was his chance at stardom. I don't really blame him 100% for it falling apart, as WCW was terribly mismanaged from the top in '89 and lost some key talent at what seemed like an awful time. Flair turning babyface should have been the program to finally put Windham over the top, but he was out of the company by the time it happened. Hogan/Windham might have worked in the WWF, but there was no reason for them to abandon Hogan/Savage and Hogan/Boss Man, both red hot programs that were drawing big money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This kinda crosses over into MMA a little I suppose, but I feel like I have been told I am supposed to care about every little move Brock Lesnar makes for the better part of a decade, and I never did. I never understood his appeal in wrestling, and I feel like he has gotten a disproportionate amount of attention from the hardcores because of TOO MUCH COVERAGE in the WON.

 

During his WWE run, he came in and was pushed to the top right away for reasons I never really understood, and he has been out of wrestling for seven years, yet his name and WWE run have been discussed in some fashion in what seems like almost every WON since. When Dave starts in on Lesnar, that's always my clue that I've encountered a skippable section of the WON. When Lesnar is around, he dominates conversation, and when he's not around, he is talked about far more than anyone else who is not around.

 

I just never cared and never understood what made him special.

Lesnar, I feel, was probably the best worker on the WWE roster by the time he had left the company. He was everything that Angle was supposed to be and more. Sure, he wasn't a great talker which is ironic because he's a great talker in the UFC and sells PPVs by just shit talking his opponents. Back to the Angle comparison. Lesnar got it. He understood he had to sell, he understood keeping it in his pants and he just had a good grasp of the psychology to wrestling. He was a great heel, he was a good face. Angle always worked his smartest matches when he was working Lesnar. That's just my opinion on his 2 or 3 years in the WWE though.

 

He's very similar to Magnum TA. He was in the business for a few years but he made a huge impact and was performing at a high level in a relative short period of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest strength of that run is that it's probably the only time Barry was a star on par with Sting and Luger. His comebacks, while filled with good matches, had him in more of a "good hand", Arn Anderson-type role. 1988 was his chance at stardom. I don't really blame him 100% for it falling apart, as WCW was terribly mismanaged from the top in '89 and lost some key talent at what seemed like an awful time. Flair turning babyface should have been the program to finally put Windham over the top, but he was out of the company by the time it happened. Hogan/Windham might have worked in the WWF, but there was no reason for them to abandon Hogan/Savage and Hogan/Boss Man, both red hot programs that were drawing big money.

I got the impression they were slowly gearing up for Hogan vs. Windham, but Windham was gone before it could come to fruition. I distinctly remember Widowmaker targeting Hogan in some of his promos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yikes... I don't even remember *liking* Barry-Dusty, let alone thinking it was a standout match. I had much more enjoyed the Barry-Bigelow and Barry-Lex matches at the time. :)

 

Anyway, looking at BW from post-Starcade '87 through his departure, here's what made Punk's set years ago in terms of matches with some teeth:

 

Barry Windham vs Larry Zbyszko NWA Sat 12/2/1987 10 mins

Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard Superbouts 1/23/1988 23:30

Tully/Arn vs Windham/Sting WWW 1/16/1988 16:49

Barry Windham vs Larry Zbyszko Bunkhouse 1/24/1988 19:12

Mike Rotunda vs Barry Windham NWA Pro 2/26/1988 9:30

Arn/Tully vs Windham/Luger NWA Pro 3/12/1988 14:13

Anderson & Blanchard vs Luger & Windham Clash 1 3/27/1988 9:31

Flair, AA & Tully vs Sting, BW & Luger Main Event 4/3/1988 12:51

Barry Windham vs Tully Blanchard Main Event 4/10/1988 15:35

Tully/Arn vs Windham/Williams Main Event 4/17/1988 15:00

 

-----------------------

 

Windham/Luger vs Tully/Arn NWA Sat 4/20/1988 20:09

 

-----------------------

 

Barry Windham vs Brad Armstrong Clash 2 6/8/1988 14:05

Flair/Arn/Barry vs Lex/Nikita/Williams NWA Houston 6/10/1988 19:06

Barry Windham vs Nikita Koloff Main Event 7/3/1988 6:07

Barry Windham vs Dusty Rhodes Bash 7/10/1988 15:55

Barry Windham vs Sting Clash 3 9/7/1988 21:04

Flair & Windham vs Rhodes & Bigelow (JIP) NWA TV 11/23/1988 18 mins

Flair/Windham vs Midnight Express Clash 4 12/7/1988 17:41

Barry Windham vs Eddie Gilbert NWA Sat 12/24/1988 20:43

Barry Windham vs Bam Bam Bigelow Starrcade 88 12/26/1988 16:18

Barry Windham vs Eddie Gilbert NWA Sat 1/14/1989 12:18

Flair & Windham vs Steamboat & Gilbert NWA Sat Night 1/21/1989 15:25

Flair/Windham vs Hayes/Sting NWA Main 2/12/1989 14:51

Barry Windham vs Lex Luger Chi Town 2/20/1989 10:43

Flair/Windham vs Luger/Gilbert NWA Main 3/12/1989 17:45

Luger/Hayes vs Windham's (Hayes turns) NWA Main 3/19/1989 5:14

 

There is quite a gap in there from the Bash to Clash 4 where there wasn't a lot of his stuff that made the set. People who have jumped into the Crockett / WCW stuff for the DVDVR 80s project and perhaps are watching all of the weekly shows probably have a better sense of whether Punk was just missing stuff, or what not.

 

Anyway, I suspect that if one were working on a 1988 Yearbook, there would be more keepers from this than just the two Arn & Tully title changes, the Dusty match, Clash 4, and Starcade. My thought at the time when he popped up on my TV was that I was seeing a pretty damn good worker.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lesnar, I feel, was probably the best worker on the WWE roster by the time he had left the company. He was everything that Angle was supposed to be and more. Sure, he wasn't a great talker which is ironic because he's a great talker in the UFC and sells PPVs by just shit talking his opponents. Back to the Angle comparison. Lesnar got it. He understood he had to sell, he understood keeping it in his pants and he just had a good grasp of the psychology to wrestling. He was a great heel, he was a good face. Angle always worked his smartest matches when he was working Lesnar. That's just my opinion on his 2 or 3 years in the WWE though.

 

He's very similar to Magnum TA. He was in the business for a few years but he made a huge impact and was performing at a high level in a relative short period of time.

Lesnar was the only post 2000's WWF-only produced guy I really enjoy from the matches I've seen. The only legit really good worker that came from the WWF manufactury to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lesnar, I feel, was probably the best worker on the WWE roster by the time he had left the company. He was everything that Angle was supposed to be and more. Sure, he wasn't a great talker which is ironic because he's a great talker in the UFC and sells PPVs by just shit talking his opponents. Back to the Angle comparison. Lesnar got it. He understood he had to sell, he understood keeping it in his pants and he just had a good grasp of the psychology to wrestling. He was a great heel, he was a good face. Angle always worked his smartest matches when he was working Lesnar. That's just my opinion on his 2 or 3 years in the WWE though.

 

He's very similar to Magnum TA. He was in the business for a few years but he made a huge impact and was performing at a high level in a relative short period of time.

Lesnar was the only post 2000's WWF-only produced guy I really enjoy from the matches I've seen. The only legit really good worker that came from the WWF manufactury to me.

 

I think Shelton Benjamin was at one point but they really beat him down until he completely sucked by the end of that run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yikes... I don't even remember *liking* Barry-Dusty, let alone thinking it was a standout match. I had much more enjoyed the Barry-Bigelow and Barry-Lex matches at the time. :)

Even if you don't like the match as a whole it's a really impressive Windham performance carrying things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...