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If Not Race Then Who?


KrisZ

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I don't think you are insane, nor do I think you have a poor grasp of wrestling history. I do think viewing things through the prism of 1983/84 Vince is completely wrong headed and the Sheik comparison totally off the wall. I also think the 30-60 days metric is a non-starter because that was never going to happen - you needed time to build the event. In that day in age thirty days certainly wasn't enough for what they were going for - sixty would have been pushing it.

 

The point I'm arguing isn't that Ivan is a literal impossibility (nothing is), but rather that I think it's pretty out there to believe Ivan in 83 was a more likely option than Patera in 81.

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Let's say Backlund didn't get his title win in 94, anyone on here would be laughed off the board for suggesting it as even a remote possibility.

 

My point with Ivan is only that it might have been an option in certain conditions. That's all.

Backlund had the belt for what, a day or two? It's not even close to the same thing.

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The reason I'm not sold on Patera in 81 is partly because, as much as work by your good self has shown that he was a proven draw, he doesn't strike me as the NWA champ type. The perennial "nearly man" for the NWA title was DiBiase. Why was that? It's because he had a rep as a broomstick worker. I'm not sure that Patera did.

 

We're literally talking about putting Patera in the Race/Flair traveling champ role here right? I can see DiBiase in that role. I can see Barry Windham in that role (not in 81 obviously, I mean in general). I can even see Greg Valentine in that role.

 

Patera though -- and nothing on the AWA set has shown me otherwise thus far -- was a power man. He did bearhugs. That's not to say he was a bad worker, but that he wasn't the TYPE of worker that they typically went for.

 

My (admittedly rather weak) suggestion for Ivan in 83 has acknowledged it would have been a big change of direction for them to have a guy like that as champ, even for a few months. I think Patera in 81 would have been a similar change in direction. I don't doubt that "it was discussed", but then Tito as WWF champ in 92 was "discussed".

 

---

 

To go back to this Ivan in 83 vs. Patera in 81 thing. I don't think either of them are very likely. A $1 bet would probably get you a nice return, enough to book your summer vacation plus the drinks.

 

What it boils down to for me is the role.

 

The 81 role is really fucking important. Giving it to Patera would be a sea-change in policy. I don't think Patera was ever that travelling champ style of worker. You've studied the shit out of him, I've seen a dozen or so matches, so if you have reason to believe otherwise I'm all ears. He doesn't seem like NWA champ material to me. That's not a knock, that's just saying it's a round hole and he's a square peg.

 

The 83 role, let's face it, isn't THAT important -- it's a guy to hold the strap for a few months and drop it back to Flair at Starrcade. If they can't get Brisco, the Funks, DiBiase, Hansen, Brody or any of those type of guys, you're looking at guys with national exposure who could have been fit in there vs. guys who could do a job. Valentine, Slaughter, Piper, who else is in there, Paul Jones? Dick Murdoch maybe? Ivan is on the list of those guys. Obviously, it's far far from ideal and probably yeah one of the other guys gets the nod in that scenario, but it's within the realms of possibility for them to go for it.

 

We're talking margins here, but the case for Patera in 81 seems off to me. You sold me more on Brunzell as WWF champ and I never thought I'd hear myself say that.

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Patera & DiBiase were neck and neck with Flair at the time as guys in line to get the title. DiBiase went to Georgia to get the springboard he needed to get the belt but Robert Fuller cuts his legs out from under him as the booker by keeping him in tag teams. Patera got the Georgia title when he came in and was pushed big but when he lost his allies in booking (Buck Robley) he saw the writing on the wall and quit.

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Side point: what about Slaughter?

In 81? No way. In 83? Very unlikely, but I would say a better shot than Ivan.

 

He was heading to the WWF:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/championship83.htm

 

04/02/83 WWF Championship Wrestling: Sgt. Slaughter (w/ the Grand Wizard) defeated Pete Sanchez at 3:20 via submission with the Cobra Clutch (Slaughter's return after a nearly 2-year absence) (taped 3/30/83 in Hamburg, PA)

As far as Ivan winning the title in 1983 rather than Race, my thought would be to look up the number of WWF Champs who won the NWA Title between 1963-1986.

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Kris, you have to admit that Patera was not your typical NWA-champ style of worker. Was he? What about him remotely resembles the type of worker they'd had for the past 15 years? Is Patera now this super worker all of a sudden? It would have been a change of direction.

 

I don't think the fact they went with Flair in the end was purely political. They also kept talking about DiBiase even into 85. Why? It's not because he was a draw, it's because he was that type.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't a push for Patera and a campaign for him. Just that it's hard to imagine him in that role.

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There isn't one, it would have been a radical change of direction for them and I have touted it as being a possibility that may have come about if certain other avenues were closed to them.

 

I also said that it would have been a drastically shorter run , 30-60 days rather than 6 months.

The point of Starcade was that it built over time:

 

St. Louis, MO - June 10, 1983

Missouri Heavyweight Champion & Central States Champion Harley Race pinned NWA World Champion Ric Flair to win the title in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match; fall #3: Race pinned Flair by lifting his shoulder out of a back suplex, with Flair pinning himself

 

Then you had Flair-Race going around the circuit, with Race hanging onto the belt.

 

Then you had the Big Angle:

 

Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling - 8/31/83:

Ric Flair defeated NWA World Champion Harley Race via disqualification at around the 22-minute mark when, as Flair had Race in the figure-4, Bob Orton Jr. appeared and held off an interfering Dick Slater until Orton and Slater both attacked Flair, hit a spike piledriver, and wrenched Flair's neck; moments later, Roddy Piper and Wahoo McDaniel came out to clear the ring and check on Flair (Nature Boy Ric Flair: The Definitive Collection)

 

Race's Bounty Hunters attack Flair.

 

Then you had Flair's comeback, and him going around the horn against the Bounty Hunters, often with Wahoo being his back up though at times Piper.

 

For the most part, Flair was kept away from Race after the Big Angle though Starcade. You can see that in the results Kris posted above: Race was doing business elsewhere.

 

That's one of the reasons the match did such huge business, not just in the building but across the territory in closed circuit: this thing had the shit built our of it. This wasn't some 30 day or 60 storyline. This was 160+. If you're a mark, there's almost a sense that Harley is back on one of his four year periods of dominating the belt. After all, Ric only had it for under 2 years. Maybe Ric is just a pretender to the thrown.

 

 

Contrary to popular opinion I'm not completely insane, and my grasp on wrestling history not as loose as you'd probably like to think. I just think Ivan might have been someone they could have turned to as a desperate backup. Stranger things have happened. The thing with these scenarios is that plausibility is to some extent illusory in wrestling.

WWF @ Allentown, PA - Agricultural Hall - January 25, 1983

Ivan Koloff (w/ Freddie Blassie) pinned Barry Hart at 2:34 with a kneedrop off the top to the back (Koloff's return after a 3-year absence)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - December 26, 1983 (24,592 which included several thousand in Felt Forum)

All American Wrestling - 2/12/84: Tito Santana pinned Ivan Koloff at 15:46 with an elbow drop off the top (Koloff's last appearance)

 

He was in the WWF through the whole thing.

 

It's also worth looking at how he was view in the WWF at the time, the territory where he had nearly all of his career highs:

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated Ivan Koloff via submission at 28:36 with the Crossface Chickenwing

 

WWF @ Baltimore, MD - Civic Center - May 21, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Ivan Koloff

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - June 4, 1983

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) defeated Ivan Koloff via submission with the Crossface Chicken Wing at 16:45 after avoiding a clothesline

 

Boston Garden: no challenges for the title.

 

He was a one-and-done challenger in 1983 for the title. This after working the following title match series at MSG previously:

 

2 matches - 1969-70

1 match - 1971 (title change)

3 matches - 1975

2 matches - 1978

 

Ivan in 1983 isn't the Ivan that you think he is... not even in the WWF.

 

Wait... it gets better. When he went to JCP at the end of 1983 post-Starcade, his introduction was to be handed the Mid-Atlantic Title by new US Champ Dick Slater. Like Mike Rotundo giving Rick Steiner the Florida Title after winning the TV Title.

 

That's the guy you want to put the World Title on and headline that biggest card in the history of JCP up to that point.

 

 

Let's say Backlund didn't get his title win in 94, anyone on here would be laughed off the board for suggesting it as even a remote possibility.

The point of Backlund winning the title was to instantly get the belt off the WWF's top face (Bret) and hand it a couple of days later to someone Vince wanted to be the new top face (Nash), without:

 

* having to do Bret vs Nash at that point (save it to pop the Rumble)

* having to job Bret to Nash (which Vince didn't do)

* having the belt on Backlund for long (fewer fingers than are on a hand)

 

That's not remotely the same thing as headlining Starcade with Flair-Ivan.

 

 

My point with Ivan is only that it might have been an option in certain conditions. That's all.

Not a good option.

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It's not about whether he was a good worker, Kirs, but whether he was an NWA-champ style of worker. What TYPE of worker was he?

Patera in the WWF in 1980 worked a style that flat out show his years of working in Mid Atlantic.

 

I'm not fully sold on Patera being an option in 1983. I tend to think Patera hiring The Bounty Hunters to take out Flair would be a negative on Patera's role in the storyline and how he was seen in JCP as a champ, while it totally worked for Race at that point in his career. I'm also not 100% certain that a large enough chunk of the NWA Promoters would have wanted Patera... just doesn't feel like they were as high on him as we are looking back.

 

But, he could easily have worked a NWA Heel Champ style.

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It's not about whether he was a good worker, Kirs, but whether he was an NWA-champ style of worker. What TYPE of worker was he?

 

No one would doubt that Hansen or Lawler were great workers, but were they NWA-champ style workers? I don't think I'm making a very controversial point.

Was Dusty Rhodes an NWA champ style worker

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It's not about whether he was a good worker, Kirs, but whether he was an NWA-champ style of worker. What TYPE of worker was he?

 

No one would doubt that Hansen or Lawler were great workers, but were they NWA-champ style workers? I don't think I'm making a very controversial point.

Was Dusty Rhodes an NWA champ style worker

 

Did Dusty have a 2-year run?

 

The question is not "could Patera have been champ", it's "could Patera have taken the Flair role in 1981". Could Dusty have? No is your simple answer.

 

jdw says he might easily have worked the NWA champ style. There is the tacit admission there that he would have had to have change his style, which is the closest I'm going to get to any sort of concession here.

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I can't see Patera as even a fringe option in 83 as I said before. His window was 81, after the hot New York run. He was a bigger star in 83 then we tend to remember and was still in demand - AWA, St. Louis, Montreal, Memphis - but he would not have been a real option for the 83 spot. I do think Patera in 83 is a better option than Ivan in 83, but neither is a real serious option by any metric.

 

As for his working style/being able to carry a broomstick....frankly I saw more carry jobs out/strong performances with limited guys out of Patera in 80 then I can remember seeing out of Ted when he would have been a contender. That's not a knock on Ted and I wouldn't doubt he could do it. But it's not like he was working Tony Atlas, Morales, aging Bruno (who I like but is limited), let alone guys like Putski and Strongbow. Aside from Backlund, I'm not sure Patera worked anything close to a top level guy in his peak year. I'd say 80 Patera is pretty much a textbook example of how to stooge/bump, while remaining strong which was really the key to NWA champs during that period. If you want to argue based on "look" or something of that ilk he's not that different in presence to me from Kiniski.

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It's not about whether he was a good worker, Kirs, but whether he was an NWA-champ style of worker. What TYPE of worker was he?

 

No one would doubt that Hansen or Lawler were great workers, but were they NWA-champ style workers? I don't think I'm making a very controversial point.

Was Dusty Rhodes an NWA champ style worker

 

Did Dusty have a 2-year run?

 

The question is not "could Patera have been champ", it's "could Patera have taken the Flair role in 1981". Could Dusty have? No is your simple answer.

 

jdw says he might easily have worked the NWA champ style. There is the tacit admission there that he would have had to have change his style, which is the closest I'm going to get to any sort of concession here.

 

Why would you be looking for a concession? How much 80 Patera have you even seen? How would you define NWA World champ working style?

 

Could he have taken the role of Flair in 81? Well up until 81 he was a bigger national star then Flair, had drawn in more places consistently, had worked against bigger babyface stars consistently and was coming off a year of work that is pretty universally regarded as great to the point where a guys with views as diverse on wrestling as myself, John, Larry Matysik, John McAdam, et think he was one of the better workers around at the time. He'd carried limited performers, shown a willingness to work all over the place and was over with at least some of the key promoters and the single most important one.

 

So I would say "Yes, he could have." Would he have been BETTER than Flair? I wouldn't even hazard a guess, but that's not the question

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Was Gene Kiniski the "prototypical" NWA champion?

In terms of look which is what I was referencing I don't think there was such a thing. Dory, Kiniski, Race, Flair, Terry, Brisco, Dusty....not a ton of similarities there even among the Funks themselves.

 

In terms of work? I haven't seen a ton of Kiniski, but I would imagine that like all NWA champs he had to stooge and make the local guys look good while being able to stay strong himself. That's pretty much the whole essence of Patera in 1980.

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FWIW, we should probably break this off into two thread because it's getting all mixed up:

 

* Who other than Flair in 1981

* Who other than Race in 1983

 

One is someone who can (i) headline Starcade against Flair while (ii) being able to fully hold up his end as NWA Champ for 160+ days.

 

The other is an actually long term NWA Champ. As in Kiniski, Dory, Bisco and Race. Even Terry Funk, as much as we love him, couldn't get through a year as NWA Champ before it was time to move on.

 

Those are two wildly different things.

 

* * * * *

 

I'll give an example. I mentioned that I didn't think Dusty could run with the WWF title for 5+ years like Backlund did. On the other hand, I did say he probably could get about a year out of it, depending on the opponents. Two different things.

 

I also think that he could have done a wickedly great run as a Heel turning on Backlund if someone in the WWF happened to see the May 27, 1980 Backlund-Dusty match from Japan. I can easily picture a six-man series for Dusty where he gets five title matches at MSG, four defenses, three matches each against Bob and Bruno.

 

So there's a lot Dusty could do that would work in the WWF. Dusty Dynasty Reign... that's harder to picture, as great as he was.

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I can't see Patera as even a fringe option in 83 as I said before. His window was 81, after the hot New York run. He was a bigger star in 83 then we tend to remember and was still in demand - AWA, St. Louis, Montreal, Memphis - but he would not have been a real option for the 83 spot. I do think Patera in 83 is a better option than Ivan in 83, but neither is a real serious option by any metric.

 

As for his working style/being able to carry a broomstick....frankly I saw more carry jobs out/strong performances with limited guys out of Patera in 80 then I can remember seeing out of Ted when he would have been a contender. That's not a knock on Ted and I wouldn't doubt he could do it. But it's not like he was working Tony Atlas, Morales, aging Bruno (who I like but is limited), let alone guys like Putski and Strongbow. Aside from Backlund, I'm not sure Patera worked anything close to a top level guy in his peak year. I'd say 80 Patera is pretty much a textbook example of how to stooge/bump, while remaining strong which was really the key to NWA champs during that period. If you want to argue based on "look" or something of that ilk he's not that different in presence to me from Kiniski.

I don't doubt that he could do carry jobs or go 60 minutes. But he's a guy who did bearhugs and full nelsons who was touted for being a strongman his entire career. You've got to go back to Kiniski to find a parallel. Sure, it's possible. I just don't see Patera in the same mould as Race or Flair or Brisco or Dory or mid-70s Terry or even Tommy Rich.

 

Why would you be looking for a concession? How much 80 Patera have you even seen? How would you define NWA World champ working style?

 

Could he have taken the role of Flair in 81? Well up until 81 he was a bigger national star then Flair, had drawn in more places consistently, had worked against bigger babyface stars consistently and was coming off a year of work that is pretty universally regarded as great to the point where a guys with views as diverse on wrestling as myself, John, Larry Matysik, John McAdam, et think he was one of the better workers around at the time. He'd carried limited performers, shown a willingness to work all over the place and was over with at least some of the key promoters and the single most important one.

 

So I would say "Yes, he could have." Would he have been BETTER than Flair? I wouldn't even hazard a guess, but that's not the question

 

How much 1980 Patera have I seen? Very little. I have Brickhithouses's WWF 79-83 set and a project lined up later this year where I'll see a whole bunch of Patera.

 

I have seen him in AWA though. Does he go through a transformation from 80 to his AWA days? Does he work a drastically different style?

 

This isn't about stardom or whether he could have been champ, but simply pointing out that he wasn't exactly typical. Not like Ted would have been typical. I'm not even pushing Ted here, just that he was in that typical NWA champ mould and I don't think Patera was.

 

EDIT: Do I really have to spell out a definition of NWA World champ working style?? Really? We don't just all implicitly know and accept what that is?

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The question is not "could Patera have been champ", it's "could Patera have taken the Flair role in 1981". Could Dusty have? No is your simple answer.

 

jdw says he might easily have worked the NWA champ style. There is the tacit admission there that he would have had to have change his style, which is the closest I'm going to get to any sort of concession here.

 

What JDW said first:

 

Patera in the WWF in 1980 worked a style that flat out show his years of working in Mid Atlantic.

His work against Backlund, Bruno, Patterson, Atlas and Pedro showed his years of working in Mid Atlantic. Flair, as NWA Champ, worked the style he perfected in Mid Atlantic. That's what I was trying to get across, and have for years when talking about Patera's work as a heel in 1980:

 

Folks who think he worked as Muscle Heel (say Nikita Koloff) would be surprised by how much he worked instead in a Mid Atlantic fashion of selling, begging off, bumping, stooging. That's not to say he was Buddy Rose, or was as great of a bumper as Harley Race. But if one watches his 1980 stuff in the WWF, you easily see someone could have worked a lot of places as a Heel Champ. The guy flat out worker great, and against a variety of different workers (which NWA Champs do).

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EDIT: Do I really have to spell out a definition of NWA World champ working style?? Really? We don't just all implicitly know and accept what that is?

I've already spelled out what I believe it was. I have no clue what you believe it was and there could be a huge difference here since you were citing Iron Sheik's one month title win in the WWF as a historical parallel to Ivan Kollof theoretically winning the NWA Title and coming into the biggest show in Crockett history up to that point as the champ to pass the torch to Flair. I don't even mean that as a troll. Even when I agree with you (which is probably more often than not actually) we rarely share assumptions and I don't think we view anything through the same prism

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