Modern Indie Wrestling

[rovert]

ROH alumni Lacey appearing on the China EVOLVE shows is a turn up for the books. She is in China anyway as she is study towards a PhD in acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine there.

[concrete1992]

I like to imagine a world where the American Z1 promotion(s?) are any good.Cause that'd be a day.

[W2BTD]

I like to imagine a world where the American Z1 promotion(s?) are any good.Cause that'd be a day.

 

I just laugh & laugh at the idea of paying to use that worthless name on your shows, but then again, I used to laugh at promoters who paid to use the NWA name until I found out how shockingly low the fee was. Like, insignificantly low.

 

The part of the deal that puts you on the hook with the NWA, is that you are required to book the world title twice per year, and the other titles (National, North American, Junior, Tag, Women's) once each (I think there is a penalty for not meeting this requirement). That's why the new regime put an emphasis on champions who are able to travel, and also why the workers are motivated to move up and get booked to win titles, because obviously it means more bookings in places where they would not normally ever be booked. Look at a guy like Chase Owens. I'm not sure he ever gets booked in Texas like he did in 2013 if not for that set up (and Kinkaid got to come with him as his opponent). And it's a great deal for Rob Conway or whoever holds the World title, because you are locked in to tons of bookings everywhere.

[KrisZ]

There was a ZERO-ONE Mexico that lasted for one show a couple of years back

[jpchicago23]

If I had to pick one or two shows to get the best Gulak/Thatcher/Busick match what would it be? To Infinity?

[Venegas]

If I had to pick one or two shows to get the best Gulak/Thatcher/Busick match what would it be? To Infinity?

FIP Everything Burns (Thatcher/Gulak) and CZW To Infinity (Gulak/Busick) also check out the Thatcher/Busick match from Beyond which is on YouTube for free.

[MikeCampbell]

I've been watching some SDW (Steel Domain Wrestling) for free on their website. I've really liked Ariya Daivari (younger brother of the more well known one), he's a solid performer and really knows how to get the crowd riled up.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

So, sup with Mike Elgin?

[jushin muta liger]

So, sup with Mike Elgin?

It seems like he's having a public meltdown but it could be work.

 

On a sidenote, I just read the ROH press release about running Terminal 5 for their Final Battle PPV. I was wondering if the Hammerstein Ballroom was booked already that night or was the building rental fee too expensive for ROH to run there.

 

I know somebody that has gone to Terminal 5 for concerts and says that it's smaller than the Hammerstein.

[stomperspc]

 

So, sup with Mike Elgin?

It seems like he's having a public meltdown but it could be work.

 

On a sidenote, I just read the ROH press release about running Terminal 5 for their Final Battle PPV. I was wondering if the Hammerstein Ballroom was booked already that night or was the building rental fee too expensive for ROH to run there.

 

I know somebody that has gone to Terminal 5 for concerts and says that it's smaller than the Hammerstein.

 

 

The former. According to the WON, the Manhattan Center raised its rental fees for both ballrooms sometime around the first TNA TV taping there. The higher fees pushed ROH to look elsewhere for their NY shows and they are trying out Terminal 5 which Meltzer says will hold about 900 compared to 1,800 for a sellout at the Hammerstein.

[Stiva]

How was this year's BOLA? Got a day or two before I can sit down and watch it but were they as good as the cards suggest?

[sek69]

 

So, sup with Mike Elgin?

It seems like he's having a public meltdown but it could be work.

 

On a sidenote, I just read the ROH press release about running Terminal 5 for their Final Battle PPV. I was wondering if the Hammerstein Ballroom was booked already that night or was the building rental fee too expensive for ROH to run there.

 

I know somebody that has gone to Terminal 5 for concerts and says that it's smaller than the Hammerstein.

 

 

Dave mentioned last night Elgin was booking his own angle on Twitter, pissed off ROH, and in the process might have ended up booking his own legit firing in the process.

[Blehschmidt]

How was this year's BOLA? Got a day or two before I can sit down and watch it but were they as good as the cards suggest?

 

I really enjoyed the shows. There were a few things that didn't work so well (AJ Styles/Curt Hawkins) and a few things that blew away expectations (the 10 man tag on night 3, ACH/Omega) but if you enjoy the product that PWG regularly puts out, you will like these shows.

[WrestlingPower]

What are people's thoughts on current Chikara? I have zero interest in following it and largely think it's utter BS from what I hear but I have to admit I'm intrigued at the level of kayfabe they are able to maintain in 2014. Maybe they draw nothing but comic book nerds now who like to immerse themselves in an "alternate universe" and completely suspend disbelief but sometimes I think they take things a bit too far. A friend of mine reffed on their show yesterday where they "killed off" the Archibald Peck character. Apparently they attempt to play these things up like the dude is really deceased. My friend was advised not to go out & mingle amongst the crowd and cancelled some post-show get togethers he had scheduled with other fans because they didn't want him "ruining the somber mood" of the death or whatever. Sounds way too wacky for me but it seems the thought is rather than have a character disappear never to be seen again they want to present a reason to kill off a character. But to think anyone is buying that someone legit died from a wrestling move in a family friendly environment seems a bit dark to me. And if they think people that attend are doing anything more than playing along I really have to question just who's kidding who here.

[pol]

Chikara doesn't appeal to me at all but I actually like the idea of presenting a wrestling promotion as taking place in a fictional universe like any other work of fiction, rather than the currently outdated status quo of presenting it as if it's real while openly acknowledging that it isn't. I think wrestling would probably get more respect and would be forced to maintain a higher standard of logic and consistency in storytelling if it were held to the same standards as even the trashier forms of fiction are.

 

edit: I guess that particularly example is kind of the opposite of that, but yeah I don't think they have any illusions about the fact that the fans are just playing along; they just want to enable that as much as possible.

[rovert]

What are people's thoughts on current Chikara? I have zero interest in following it and largely think it's utter BS from what I hear but I have to admit I'm intrigued at the level of kayfabe they are able to maintain in 2014. Maybe they draw nothing but comic book nerds now who like to immerse themselves in an "alternate universe" and completely suspend disbelief but sometimes I think they take things a bit too far. A friend of mine reffed on their show yesterday where they "killed off" the Archibald Peck character. Apparently they attempt to play these things up like the dude is really deceased. My friend was advised not to go out & mingle amongst the crowd and cancelled some post-show get togethers he had scheduled with other fans because they didn't want him "ruining the somber mood" of the death or whatever. Sounds way too wacky for me but it seems the thought is rather than have a character disappear never to be seen again they want to present a reason to kill off a character. But to think anyone is buying that someone legit died from a wrestling move in a family friendly environment seems a bit dark to me. And if they think people that attend are doing anything more than playing along I really have to question just who's kidding who here.

 

Really struggled with it. I want to like CHIKARA. Was really digging them once they closed. Their return was a gloriously fun event and then they quickly lost my interest. Will buy the eventual 2014 Best of to see than Archi-Remington **** comedy match.

[WrestlingPower]

I have been told that I don't "get it" since I'm not into comic books. Apparently in comic books, the faces get killed off on the regular to "get over" the latest heel & then are miraculously brought back after the big heel is vanquished. Who knew?

 

But that doesn't really translate to me in pro wrestling. I fall more into the Cornette camp & I'm not sure how openly admitting it's fake & dropping all pretense of presenting it as a sport is supposed to ENHANCE continuity & logic. If people aren't invested in the characters and/or know they are playing a role then why would they pay to see issues settled? Just run a "Wrestling Is Fun" show with wacky gimmicks for the kiddies. Muddying the waters while trying to play to kids and then trying to act like a promotion or wrestlers are legit dead just seems screwed up to me. Why try to pretend to be serious at all? Not to mention creating a culture where their most ardent fans get legit offended if you try to get anyone to break the slightest bit of kayfabe within the niche/hardcore internet MB community.

[BillThompson]

I don't think Chikara is doing that though, they are presenting their universe as very real. Not buying into that universe on face value is a reasonable and understandable response. But, if you're looking for a promotion that keeps kayfabe alive look no further than Chikara, because a character dying and being brought back to life is extreme kayfabe to that universe.

[Loss]

Without having seen very much Chikara, I'm trying to figure out if it's really that much different than the Undertaker striking lightning bolts, being resurrected or using his special powers to shake a ring on WWE shows through the years. Or Kane causing a fire simply by raising his arms for that matter. Is Chikara truly something different, or have those things just become so institutionalized that we don't think about them much?

[Troy]

Does anyone watch NWA Anarchy? I used to love Wildside back in the day. I've only seen two Anarchy shows, one from 08 & 10. I found both enjoyable. Now I'm waiting on their two big shows from this year to come in so I can see how it is nowadays but it seems to be pretty consistent and doesn't seem to get much love

[Dylan Waco]

I love Anarchy. Shaun Tempers is one of my favorite heels in wrestling.

[stomperspc]

The more comic bookish angles aren't my thing, but they don't bother me all that much either and wouldn't bother me at all if the match quality was consistently good. It is a bit of a mix bag though. Devastation Corporation is a fun act and they have gotten leaps and bounds better over the past couple of years. I find the whole Colony thing and their many spin-offs to be charming. Silver Ant is underrated. Ashley Remington is great character and Dalton Castle plays it perfectly. He's a bit unpolished in the ring but the way he plays the role is perfect and really good acting for wrestling in general, not to mention on the indies.

 

There is a lot of noise surrounding those clear cut positive traits. They just don't have that strong of a roster/undercard right now to really hook me. Conceptually, killing guys off, time traveling, and whatever other stuff they do is fine with me as long as it is handled with sincerity which it usually is in Chikara. Like I said, its not my favorite style of booking and presentation but if the wrestling were really strong and the current roster was a bit more appealing, I'd have no problem diving completely into the promotion instead of just checking out the occasional show.

 

Also, I think they have some of the better indie crowds. Yes, it might be a bunch of hispters ironically cheering and booing, but I don't care. They boo the heels and react to most matches/angles in the appropriate manner so I could care less if it is ironic or not. When the crowd reacts in the way the action is intended to make them react, it makes watching the shows much more fun.

[Steenalized]

I'll say that they put on easily the worst show I've ever been to live when they came to Chicago back in June. Zero good matches and the impromptu thumb wrestling tournament took up more time than the main event.

[W2BTD]

Chikara always walked a fine line between fun & stupidity, but they crossed the line post shutdown, and the sketchy nature of the shutdown left a bad taste in my mouth. I was a casual supporter as a "guilty pleasure" pre shutdown (I also liked Osaka Pro for similar reasons), but now I have very little interest in supporting them.

 

I will say that the Inspire Pro/Chikara joint show earlier this month was a nice throwback to the old days and a very enjoyable live event. It's worth a look if you are a DVD buyer who normally follows either promotion.

[pol]

But that doesn't really translate to me in pro wrestling. I fall more into the Cornette camp & I'm not sure how openly admitting it's fake & dropping all pretense of presenting it as a sport is supposed to ENHANCE continuity & logic. If people aren't invested in the characters and/or know they are playing a role then why would they pay to see issues settled?

 

This is getting wildly off topic, but... the same reason people get invested in TV serials, movies, books... just about any other work of fiction. Kayfabe is dead and isn't coming back, so I think the best approach is to demand the same level of logic and consistency that we'd demand from other genres of fiction, not to demand the genie be put back in the bottle. Meltzer has said several times that the WWE doesn't care about telling consistent, logical stories because "it's just wrestling, everyone knows it's fake so why bother" which is so completely ass-backwards. Instead of just giving up on logic and consistency and doing this weird cognitive dissonance thing where they openly acknowledge what wrestling is but on TV still present it like it's always been presented, they should start presenting it as a work of fiction and hold themselves to the standards of quality fiction. You don't necessarily have to get into CHIKARA silliness; you could easily produce a realistic TV serial about a fictional sport. Roll credits at the end of RAW. Have wrestlers appear on talk shows out of character under their real names. It sure didn't seem to hurt people's investment in the Walter White character that Bryan Cranston would appear on talk shows.

 

I know there's an argument that wrestling is fundamentally different from other forms of fiction and that the fanbase doesn't look at it like they do other forms of fiction even though they absolutely know it's worked, but maybe that needs to change since the old way of presenting wrestling doesn't seem to be doing so hot any more.