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#41 GOTNW

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 06:57 PM

Honestly Mutoh 95 G1 Final probably isn't a top twenty Hashimoto match for me at this point. I have all of these at *****:

Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu-NJPW 10.8.1991. (this one I don't expect anyone else to rank nearly as high but. it works for me so)
Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase-NJPW 3.8.1993.
Shinya Hashimoto vs Jushin Liger-NJPW 24.2.1994.
Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase-NJPW 13.12.1994.
Shinya Hashimoto vs Nobuhiko Takada-NJPW 29.4.1996.
Shinya Hashimoto vs Riki Choshu-NJPW 2.8.1996.
Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Shinya Hashimoto & Yuji Nagata-Zero-1 2.3.2001.

 

there's also vs Naoya Ogawa-NJPW 11.10.1999. which isn't on my official list because I was too lazy to do a write up but it will get both a rewatch and a write up in the (near;I hope) future.



#42 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 06:20 AM

Was having a read of this just now, was of interest: http://insidepulse.c...06/07/13/49642/

#43 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 06:36 AM

I only skimmed over the article, but I thought it was largely bullshit, Mind you, it was written 10 years ago and not really relevant to Hashimoto's GWE case for this poll. 



#44 GOTNW

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 09:09 AM

Hashimoto did have his share of influence. Like you don't immediately associate a Samoa Joe with him but he did work ZERO-1 and somewhat model himself after him. Ohtani's style changed alongside him, and it would be interesting to look into how much a guy like Sekimoto working Zero-1 so much from from all the way back in 2001 has influenced Big Japan and the creation of its strong division. I can also say that, personally, as a fan my interest in it really took off once Kohei Sato, a Hashimoto trainee, started working there, and that his presence played an important part jn the style overcoming some of its initial limitations.

#45 Clayton Jones

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 09:48 AM

Honestly Mutoh 95 G1 Final probably isn't a top twenty Hashimoto match for me at this point. I have all of these at *****:

Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase-NJPW 3.8.1993.

 

I just watched this for the first time. First off thanks very much for the recommendation, I'd never heard about this one, and obviously love their '94 title match and also thoroughly enjoyed a shorter match I have on DVD somewhere between the two of them, I believe also from a G1.

This was a ton of fun but almost all the positives were brought by Hase. Hashimoto's lack of selling actively hurts the match and keeps it from being great. There was one amazing moment from Hash where he starts pounding on Hase's back basically saying "why won't you stay down?!?" But otherwise when Hash goes into his stretch run this almost comes off the rails and is only brought back by a truly great finish. And I feel like I often have this problem with Hash.

I love Hashimoto. There are very few wrestlers I get as excited to watch as him. But in terms of his actual catalog of matches I tend to side with Loss' comment a month back. And the problems with this Hase match, where there are really great ideas planted in the match that are wasted on a less than great finishing run and lack of coherence, are Hash problems that I don't think are exclusive to this match. I know it's often explained as not having the caliber of opponents they had in AJPW or the difference in strong style VS king's road, and I think there's validity to both those points. In particular the lack of one or two career defining rivals during his peak is a huge issue that held Hashimoto back from realizing his full potential. But I also think eventually you need to consider that Hash himself had some shortcomings that caused this lack of all-time great matches he left behind.

I hate to even criticize the guy. His aura was second to none and I love watching him wrestle. These are just nagging thoughts I've had watching him for a long time that were hammered home by the Hase match.



#46 GOTNW

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:34 AM

 

This was a ton of fun but almost all the positives were brought by Hase.

Could you go more in depth on this? I loved Hase's performance in it as well but the idea it was a Hase carry job or even close to it is just mind-boggling.

 

Hashimoto's lack of selling actively hurts the match and keeps it from being great.

Lack of selling as in? I could write a lot in why I though him shrugging off the legwork was the right thing to do. If you're talking about him just being dominant in general, well, that was kind of the point of the match to set up the surprise flash finish and it worked great.

 

I love Hashimoto. There are very few wrestlers I get as excited to watch as him. But in terms of his actual catalog of matches I tend to side with Loss' comment a month back.

I am already rolling my eyes not this again.

 

And the problems with this Hase match, where there are really great ideas planted in the match that are wasted on a less than great finishing run and lack of coherence, are Hash problems that I don't think are exclusive to this match. I know it's often explained as not having the caliber of opponents they had in AJPW or the difference in strong style VS king's road, and I think there's validity to both those points. In particular the lack of one or two career defining rivals during his peak is a huge issue that held Hashimoto back from realizing his full potential. But I also think eventually you need to consider that Hash himself had some shortcomings that caused this lack of all-time great matches he left behind.

I'm still waiting for someone to say something worthwhile on his "shortcomings".

 

"Hash doesn't have career defining rivals" disagree, Choshu feud is my favourite feud ever, the WAR/Tenryu feud is amazing, the Naoya Ogawa feud is so so so so great in literally every aspect of it. Not just like matches you have Hashimoto hunting down Ogawa while he's NWA champ literally travelling to America to challenge him to a match and then you have press conferences where tables are flipped and Hashimoto completely changes his look and. Fuck. Do you people even like pro wrestlng.

"Hash doesn't have the all time great matches"-again, this gets brough up and I have no idea what to even say. I mean, I get people don't love Hashimoto as much as me but I don't remember the last time someone brough something constructive to Hash critique.

 



#47 Jetlag

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 12:39 PM

Here is the review Daniel (of the now destroyed puroresu.tv) wrote for the 10/11/99 Hashimoto/Ogawa match

 

 

 

As many of you know, my favourite things in pro wrestling are big dramatic counters, shoot-style struggle over moves, sportive excitement, unpredictable structure, and great selling. This match just so happened to deliver all of those things in spades - another iteration of the great stuff that can emerge from a shooter vs pro wrestler dynamic.

The build-up/angle for this match is amazing. I suggest you watch the full package in the youtube link, but here's a quick digest:

Ogawa was a heavyweight silver medalist in judo of 1992 Summer Olympics, and placed fifth at the 1996 Summer Olympics. In 1997 he joined up with Sayama to transition to pro wrestling and MMA. He made his pro wrestling debut against Hashimoto later in 1997 and came away with a shock victory by a sleeper hold. In 1999, Ogawa ditched the judo gi, and sported a new shooter look complete with leg guards and open gloves. Then came the famous 1/4/99 incident, with Ogawa laying into Hashimoto brutally and leaving him a bloody mess. Hashimoto tracked Ogawa down in America (then NWA champ), assaulted him and asked for a shot at the belt. At the contract-signing press conference for the Tokyo Dome title match, Hashimoto angrily threw the table at Ogawa before storming out. Ogawa said that Hashimoto was simply afraid of Ogawa taking Hashimoto's place at the top of NJPW. Fujinami will be the special referee, to stop shenanigans.

The event just felt enormous from the get-go, with Inoki playing ring announcer for the match. Hashimoto came out looking like the most awesome warrior in history, and the tension waiting for the bell was quite unreal. They worked a fantastic transition from the start, with Hashimoto taunting Ogawa, and the over-eager Ogawa running straight into an epic head-butt. Both guys had this amazing presence in the ring, and Hashimoto's attacks on Ogawa went over beautifully. Ogawa sold huge for Hashimoto of course, and then came the second awesome transition from Hashimoto's first rampage into his second with some big back-suplexes. Just when you think you've read the word transition enough, Hashimoto made the big mistake of going after a submission, with Ogawa countering into a nail-biting top wrist lock nearfall.

For selling connoisseurs, the way Ogawa got back up after the first STO was just perfect - nodding to the kicks and leglocks Hashimoto had tried earlier. Truly world-class selling from both guys made Hashimoto's leg-based comeback this exhilirating and meaningful thing - ultimately punctuated equally brilliantly by Ogawa's desperation STO. Really, you couldn't script out a smarter and more dramatic 5 mins of pro wrestling than the middle 5 here.

That essentially led into the final segment of the match, which had this really intriguing and unorthodox approach. Hashimoto was pretty much God of expressiveness and toukon - which you knew already - but he cranked it up to a different level here. He keeps getting up, but slower and slower each time. Forever clinging onto the hope that just one big strike or leg kick and he could be back into it. Ogawa meanwhile is recovering, and just keeps putting Hashimoto down. But the question still remains: can Hashimoto comeback? Can he? All it would take is just one leg kick or chop. Just one! This was all writ large across Hashimoto, and sits right at the forefront of our viewing minds.

In short - this was an operatic spectacle. A real showcase of some of the best selling you will ever see, and this really unique and clever match layout. The big moves are there, but it's the struggle, desperation and transitioning that gets across the intense 5-mins of awesome. The climax is very original, and should tickle making-sense fans the right way, with the perfect psychology throughout. Overall, a joy to watch.

 

That feud is criminally underrated. The 2000 match didn't even make the DVDVR best of japan project (but the tag with Iizuka did?). More reviews in the archived thread https://web.archive....es/page__st__20



#48 Childs

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, the idea that Hash didn't have great rivalries is bizarre. Hash-Tenryu is one of my five favorite pairings in wrestling history. I'd also add Mutoh to the list, even though I don't love (or even like) Mutoh.



#49 Clayton Jones

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 01:17 PM

Yeah the no selling of the leg work is exactly what I'm talking about. You can still look dominant while having sound psychology. Hase brought the structure, emotion, executed better, had better transitions, and was a world class babyface bell to bell. The finish would have been just as good and surprising had Hashimoto sold the great work Hase put in for more than half the match. And all of this wouldn't be such a noticeable detractor from the match had Hashimoto not chosen to go to flying kicks for the majority of his offense.

The Ogawa feud is admittedly a blind spot for me and something I have on my long list of matches to check out. Once again thanks for the match recommendation.



#50 GOTNW

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:04 PM

I want to like you because you like Ohtani but you're making it really hard.

 

 

If you've watched a good amount of japanese wrestling you'll notice peculiar selling patterns. Western fans have two ways of reacting to them 1) it sucked, he no sold the leg! 2)I don't care that he no sold the leg, it didn't bother me.

 

Both are equally incorrect and don't tell you anything. If you've ever watched a return match it's common for a returning wrestler's opponent to target his in these matches and for the returning wrestler to shrug it off. It may not always be a return match even, just a focus on a certain limb and the opponent shrugging it off. It's not even limited to japanese wrestlers. Ever watch someone work over Stan Hansen's arm? It's the same thing.

 

Hase works over Hashimoto's leg. Hashimoto initially registers the pain, but he shrugs it off. He kicks the shit out of him regardless. That's what really makes it stand out to me from the other matches in which Hashimoto takes so much of them by kicking the shit out of someone. Hase has a gameplan. He executed it. It still failed. It made the contrast that much bigger and Hase's comeback that much more amazing.

 

 

I used to say stupid shit like that too, until I realised I was giving matches lesser ratings than I wanted to, so I thought about it and started noticing all this patterns and judging matches for what they are actually trying to achieve and not for not being wrestled like they would be in a different (read: AMERICAN) setting.

 

 

I mean just look at how ridiculously constructed this is:

 

You can still look dominant while having sound psychology.

How many Hashimoto matches have you seen? Do you really think he would just start no-selling shit for no reason?



#51 GOTNW

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:07 PM

I will also point out the legwork wasn't the body of the match like it is in say, a big Tanahashi match, and that I found the legwork engaging enough of it's own and didn't really need it to be intertwined with the body of the match to like it. But it was, and I loved the way they did it. There's also a point Ditch used to bring up that selling should be proportional to the amount of punishment received. It's not like Hase worked over Hashimoto's leg for twenty five minutes.



#52 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:13 PM

I've seen people criticise Hase for the same thing (shrugging off an injury) very recently. Is it also invalid in that case?

#53 Clayton Jones

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:17 PM

He literally worked his leg over for 14 minutes of a 22 minute match. If you don't consider that the body of the match then you are wrong.



#54 GOTNW

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:55 PM

He literally worked his leg over for 14 minutes of a 22 minute match. If you don't consider that the body of the match then you are wrong.

That is probably somewhat of a mistake on my part looking at it now. I guess the beatdown is so entrenched in my memory I assumed it went on for longer. Somewhat of a mistake I say-because I've brough up earlier when Parv reviewed the match-there was double legwork early on. It wasn't one continous control segment by Hase. I'm too tired to go re-watch the match now and try to point to when exactly does the battle for the early holds and such turn into proper limbwork. But at one points Hashimoto does opt to move onto kicks and strikes and such while Hase continues focusing on his leg. Still 14 minutes of that match being Hase legwork is incorrect and  I stand by my point, even with misremembering things a little bit (things that aren't of that big signifigance in our argument, in my opinion). It was justified in what they were going for.



#55 Bierschwale

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 09:02 PM

Choshu feud is my favourite feud ever, the WAR/Tenryu feud is amazing, the Naoya Ogawa feud is so so so so great in literally every aspect of it. Not just like matches you have Hashimoto hunting down Ogawa while he's NWA champ literally travelling to America to challenge him to a match and then you have press conferences where tables are flipped and Hashimoto completely changes his look and. Fuck. Do you people even like pro wrestlng.

 

Forget the other parts of the Ogawa EPIC, just Hash taking off the hachimaki before their first match is an amazing "things done changed" moment.



#56 GOTNW

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 08:37 AM

 

His stalling was also superb and it lead to outbursts of violent strikes which of course make for astounding pro wrestling.

I've touched on this already, but I though of it just recently-and Hashimoto really was an amazing staller. A lot of times stalling is there just for its own cause, and its amusing for what it is but the way Hashimoto used it was just brilliant. He'd have these amazing epic giant staredowns with small movements that were like a pastiche of two boxers looking for an opening and a long awaited confrontation between the protagonist and the antagonist in an action movie. You could feel the crowd coming alive, and it would intensify and just as it would reach its climax and your suspense would be at maximum but before it reached overkill he'd explode and that right there is peak wrestling to me.



#57 Boss Rock

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:18 PM

I'm not sure if there's anyone who could bring the heat like he could. Guys like Hansen, Tenryu, and Jumbo could be absolutely relentless with their strikes, but Hashimoto was just...different. Almost unmatched in intensity. I'm not as crazy about his more "sporting" or ground-based matches, but he still knew how to make stuff like working an arm or headlock seem dramatic when most just use them for transitions.






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