What do you value in wrestling when watching and rating matches?

[Tim Cooke]

As I was watching the Wrestle Kingdom 9 show on New Japan World Sunday morning, there were times where I thought that maybe modern wrestling has passed me by. After watching the PPV, I came away thinking it was a very enjoyable 4 hour show but nothing kicked me in the gut and made me go, “This is something I can’t get anywhere else – especially from a historical perspective.”

 

And I want to be clear that I’m not singling out New Japan here because I thought the Ishii/Homna G-1 match was a great match and would rate it in my top 5 of 2014. I thought Suzuki vs. Styles was great and felt Nakamura was as consistent of a performer around in 2014, especially after Daniel Bryan went down post-WM. It’s not even a Japanese thing because I very much enjoyed the CIMA vs. Super Shisa “maestro” matches (for lack of a better term) from Dragon Gate in Dec ’13 and Feb ’14.

 

But reading the majority of thoughts on the show, I’m lost when it comes to ***** for both Nakamura/Ibushi and Tanahashi/Okada. Even knocking them both down a ¼* or so, they come out as front runners for best 1-2 combination for semi-main and main event on a show – all time. That boggles my mind. This is truly not Kobashi/Hansen followed by Misawa/Kawada at Budokan in July 1993 nor even something at a lower level like the Fantastics vs. Malenko/Kikuchi followed by Jumbo vs. Misawa at Budokan in September 1990.

 

That’s when I really thought about what I value when watching and rating wrestling matches.

 

I put a premium on match heat. It’s funny looking back because in 2002 when I was watching the current product at the time as well as sifting through the best stuff from the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s that I hadn’t seen yet, the 2002 matches came off as flat and lacking heat, especially compared to the 80’s and 90’s matches. An example would be the Nishimura vs. Takayama match from the August 2002 G-1 Climax show. In 2002, I thought the match was technically very good, maybe even great, but thought it was clearly below the best 200 matches I had seen from the 80’s and 90’s because of the heat. Re-watching it a month ago, the match had more heat than 99% of what I have watched in 2014.

 

And here comes the major contradiction: if something is taped up close at ringside (ala Black Terry Jr.) and is taking place in front of only 25-30 people but has that intimate feel and the work is good, I can and do rate those matches as well or better than the contemporary matches that have more heat. But ask me to watch a heatless IWRG match that is shot with three professional camera’s with a producer and even if the work is good, I’m probably going to like it less. Ditto something from a rinky dink IWA-MS show in front of 30 people.

 

The same can be said for something like the Hechicero vs. Navarro Christmas Day match from this year. It was a pretty small crowd (though to be fair they were vocal). If that aired as a professional three camera shoot, I almost certainly would have liked it less. The work would have been the same in both instances but the end result to me would have differed. [bTW, the match is good and worth watching but isn’t the blow away encounter that Navarro and Hechicero are capable of having against each other.]

 

There are certainly exceptions and production probably deserves another thread of its own.

 

It was an interesting experiment watching the 1999 yearbook at the same time as I was going back through 2014 matches to make my top 5 list. 1999 isn’t particularly well thought of. WCW was mostly a mess, WWF was entrenched in the Attitude era, which has a negative stigma for a lot of people. In Japan, All Japan was beyond stale and dying while Inoki was in the midst of inserting his fingerprints of legitimacy in the working style. Michinoku Pro had lost KDX….blah blah blah.

 

But going back and watching 1999, there are so many instances where the heat for matches far exceeds 99% of the wrestling of today. A wide spectrum of promotions and situations had different matches producing great heat:

 

- 3/15 Rey Jr. vs. Kidman (Nitro)

o WCW had their best month of the year between from after Uncensored to the end of April from an in-ring standpoint. But it’s evident that the crowds were getting restless and all the damage done over the past year and a half was going to catch up with them. Cruiserweights were pushed to the back burner. Chavo vs. Kidman was the Superbrawl 1999 cruiserweight match. That is sad, especially with the diverse roster WCW employed. Rey lost his match, beat Nash on a fluke, and then lost to him, and Kidman was starting to get stale at the champion. Yet, on a Nitro in Cincinnati (I don’t remember if Cincy was a good WCW town or not for crowd reactions), they get the crowd right with them and have their best singles match against each other.

- 3/28 and 4/25 Rock vs. Austin (WrestleMania and Backlash)

o These two matches had more heat than anything non-Daniel Bryan in 2014. Granted, it is the Rock and Austin, but it also speaks to the overness of today’s wrestlers, specifically guys being heavily praised like Tanahashi, Okada, and even Nakamura.

- 1/29 Hardy Boys vs. Serial Thrillaz (OMEGA)

o So the Rock and Austin don’t count because they are once in a lifetime talent. So how do you explain a match inside a gymnasium with what looked to be no more than 300 people (maybe less) having more sustained heat than anything on the New Japan show. This isn’t to say that the New Japan didn’t have a few moments of good heat, but nothing sustained and certainly not at a ratio fans in North Carolina compared to 35,000+ in the Tokyo Dome.

- 1/22 Misawa vs. Kawada (All Japan)

o A flawed, flawed match that in the context of 1999 had very good heat and would have blown away almost everything on the Tokyo Dome card. And this is *maybe* their seventh best match, at best in terms of heat and work.

- 10/11 Hashimoto vs. Ogawa (New Japan)

o Another horribly flawed, horribly booked match that has people literally jumping out of their seats at the Tokyo Dome for the big spots.

 

This isn’t even looking at Mexico because the audio mixes for CMLL and AAA, even in 1999 was still absolutely shitty.

 

Three of those matches wouldn’t make my top 10 matches of the year for 1999 while the other three would. But all six created a different atmosphere, which in turn produced a different emotional response from the crowd that was levels above what I have seen over the last couple of years.

 

New Japan’s show was seemingly mic’ed well and as I said before, there were certainly moments (the pop Homna got for the win in the six man tag, parts of the Nakamura/Ibushi match, and even the crowbar match between Ishii and Goto had its moments of reactions) but nothing that was sustainable that made this show an all-time classic.

 

Beyond heat, I obviously look at what stylistically appeals to me. UWF/RINGS mat work, southern style tags, well worked hierarchal Japanese matches (ala early to mid 90’s All Japan classics), old school US mat work (working in and out of variations of side headlocks and legscissors), and lucha that combines mat work, stunning arm drags, and great dives.

 

So after all of that rambling, what does everyone else look for?

 

 

[Grimmas]

To really generalize, if a wrestling match has nothing that annoys me (i.e. things make sense) good selling and a hot finishing stretch than I am pretty happy.

 

Ideally, a wrestling match makes sense and builds towards a logically finish.

 

I got to say though, if I really like the finish or finishing sequence I usually rate it higher. During the NJ set that Inoki-Hansen match that ended with a Hansen lariat on the apron for a count out win got rated way higher than it should have, because I loved that finish so much.

 

You are allowed to bore me during the beginning or parts in the middle, but make the last parts count.

[iamthedoctor]

A good actual wrestling match ie Valentine vs Santana from the Garden.

[Fantastic]

The crowd interest in a match can hide so many sins of the action itself. That being said, I'm a massive fan of Puro, and as we all know, the crowd never really rises to the level of American crowds. However, the beauty of that is when they do become unhinged, it enhances the phenomenal workrate (commonplace in big Japanese wrestling matches where arbitrary limitations aren't placed on the performers like in WWE).

 

Like, take for instance Nakamura vs. Sakuraba from WK7, the crowd were popping huge everytime Sakuraba caught Nakamura in a submission attempt, in an otherwise bland match that was trying to borrow too much from MMA (which greatly diminished the performance capabilities of Nakamura). On the other side of the World, Joe vs Kobashi was a pretty limited action contest, given that Kobashi was greatly limited in ring at this point. The fact that the audience were so into it and went apeshit every time Kobashi pulled out his chops or a signature move, covered up for the fact that Kobashi wasn't the wrestler he once was and gave him one more ***** calibre match.

 

Oh, and Jericho vs. The Legends. People fucking loved Steamboat, the pops everytime he got a near fall were amazing! It's such a shame that Steamboat suffered that injury (was it a minor stroke or something?). He was in pretty good shape for a man of his age and I'd liked to have seen him wrestle one or two more matches, just purely because of how great he was/is at commanding crowd interest.

[Loss]

I actually think crowds in Japan are usually pretty hot. They just pop for different things. Korakuen Hall has probably been the busiest wrestling venue anywhere in the world for the last 30 years, and those crowds are usually very excited.

[JerryvonKramer]

I realise that I'm very peculiar on this, and probably one of the more extreme cases on here, but for me it's much less crowd heat and much more the general atmosphere or "world" of a particular promotion. This single thing affects my enjoyment of matches perhaps more than anything else.

 

I'm very happy and at home with certain "worlds". I love the world of Mid South. I love the world of All Japan (70s-90s). I love the world that we cover on Titans (Vince Sr-era WWF). I love the world of 80s WWF up until about 1994. I love the world of JCP. I love the world of GCW. I love the world of WCW up until Hogan arrives in 94. I love the world of World of Sport.

 

I do not love the worlds of Attitude Era WWF, modern WWE, modern New Japan, ECW, or 00s Indie promotions.

 

I'd rather watch mediocre-bad matches or even actively awful matches in the first set of contexts than great ***** matches in the second lot, because the contexts make it very difficult for me to buy into or care about anything or anyone.

 

And by "world" I mean the implied inner universe of the promotion, including ring announcers, commentators, time keepers, authority figures, and the fans that you can see on camera.

[concrete1992]

Not a be all, end all thing but something I value highly is a lack of downtime in matches. Not quite meaning high workrate but that could be part of it. I more mean that I'm engrossed in most everything. I don't care if there is a 5 minute headlock segment. If you can make things engrossing even when basic and essentially giving yourself time to breath that means the world to me. Taking Randy Orton for example, this is a big reason why he doesn't appeal to me in the slightest (mixed with offense I don't really get into). I don't know if I have ADD, but I also don't know if I don't have ADD but dry downtime is confirmed to take me right out of a match. NJPW/Indie strike exchanges could also fall into the boring filler boat.

 

When matches are a series of ebbs and flows, if they make the luls interesting, that is something I put a premium on.

[anarchistxx]

how do you explain a match inside a gymnasium with what looked to be no more than 300 people (maybe less) having more sustained heat than anything on the New Japan show. This isn’t to say that the New Japan didn’t have a few moments of good heat, but nothing sustained and certainly not at a ratio fans in North Carolina compared to 35,000+ in the Tokyo Dome.

 

This isn't a problem unique to wrestling though. Soccer matches at tiny lower league grounds in the UK have a rabid, raucous, loud atmosphere, whereas when you watch Arsenal play in front of 60,000 people it is often quiet.

 

Agree that heat is important though - what would a match like Canadian Stampede be without the crazy crowd? Or Joe vs Kobashi? The reason the heat has gone out of mainstream US wrestling is because the characters are less distinct, they all wrestle and act in a homogeneous, clearly forced way that makes it hard for the crowd to connect with them. Feuds are built worse. Angles with hatred and blood are less common. Haven't seen enough NJPW recently to comment.

 

These days my taste in matches has changed radically. I need to connect with the wrestlers, be interested in the writing and the feud and the match itself has to be worked in a way that doesn't just retread tired old tropes.

[DR Ackermann]

Meaning and struggle. I like when what happens in a match is played up as having consequences. If the referee is making a big deal out of not letting a guy throw a punch, then if someone gets punched in that match I want it to be built to or demonstrated as worthy of being illegal. I like it to seem like people are actually trying to win a match. I love how in the Fujinami/Choshu 4.3.83 match both guys are fighting over each hold like its life and death. Selling gives things meaning. What I really hate is when a wrestler will make a big deal out of having been worked over and once they go on offense, they're completely fine. I love good cut-off spots that build drama. Basically I want to care and I want to be given a reason to care. It can be done so many different ways. What I hate seeing is people going out and just doing stuff for the sake of it or being lazy and not giving the proper respect to their craft.

[BillThompson]

Depends on the match for me. I look for different things in a lightning match, an ironman match, a tag match, a match in front of 30 people, a match in front of 5,000 people, a match in Mexico, a match in a dingy North Carolina gym, and so on and so forth.

[fxnj]

And by "world" I mean the implied inner universe of the promotion, including ring announcers, commentators, time keepers, authority figures, and the fans that you can see on camera.

I agree with you on the importance of those little things and I'd also add camera work to that list. Like Tim was saying, some handhelds can give matches a really cool feel entirely different from what you get with formal TV production. On the other end, I would also say the WWE camera guys are actually really underappreciated in how they cover up sloppiness and always get just the right angles to reinforce the story trying to be told in the ring.

[Loss]

There is a match between the Rockers and Hart Foundation on Shawn's DVD that was never shown on television because of the rope break. The one where the Rockers won the tag titles. Anyway, it comes across as so much more physical than even the stuff with good workers normally did because there is no piped in heat and because of the lack of commentary, you can also hear the in-ring stuff a lot more - the bumps, the breathing, etc. I probably would have liked the match with sweetening and commentary, but I'm not sure I would have picked up on the physical aspect of what they were doing nearly as much. That's one of my favorite things about RINGS and why I love it when the crowd goes silent. I'm not sure the style would be so freakin' cool if you couldn't hear the struggle inside the ring.

[BillThompson]

That's actually one of my favorite things about small level indie wrestling. The camera is usually right up close, and the small crowd can be as hit as they want and I can still hear everything happening in the ring.

[iamthedoctor]

The crowd interest in a match can hide so many sins of the action itself. That being said, I'm a massive fan of Puro, and as we all know, the crowd never really rises to the level of American crowds. However, the beauty of that is when they do become unhinged, it enhances the phenomenal workrate (commonplace in big Japanese wrestling matches where arbitrary limitations aren't placed on the performers like in WWE).

 

Like, take for instance Nakamura vs. Sakuraba from WK7, the crowd were popping huge everytime Sakuraba caught Nakamura in a submission attempt, in an otherwise bland match that was trying to borrow too much from MMA (which greatly diminished the performance capabilities of Nakamura). On the other side of the World, Joe vs Kobashi was a pretty limited action contest, given that Kobashi was greatly limited in ring at this point. The fact that the audience were so into it and went apeshit every time Kobashi pulled out his chops or a signature move, covered up for the fact that Kobashi wasn't the wrestler he once was and gave him one more ***** calibre match.

 

Oh, and Jericho vs. The Legends. People fucking loved Steamboat, the pops everytime he got a near fall were amazing! It's such a shame that Steamboat suffered that injury (was it a minor stroke or something?). He was in pretty good shape for a man of his age and I'd liked to have seen him wrestle one or two more matches, just purely because of how great he was/is at commanding crowd interest.

 

It made no sense why Steamboat didnt get the win in any of the matches. Jericho was well past his prime during this time so Ricky putting him over seemed a bit pointless. They could have easily had Steamboat get the win on Raw but just seemed odd Steamboat never beat Jericho. Kinda irritated me at the time as one of those 3 Legends at mania should have beaten him due to Rourke helping the guy out. Some fans might as bought into Jericho beating 3 legends in the one match but I didnt.

[anotherspammer]

I have to disagree with the praise for WWE's camera work. They may cover up "sloppiness," but they do so by not letting you see anything. To me it screams "this is fake and these guys aren't really hitting each other" when they change cameras to some obscured shot every time a guy does something. I just re-watched the Shield vs. Wyatts match from Elimination Chamber and remembered why I couldn't get in to it as much as everybody else seemed to - the constant switching of cameras to the point that you never got a decent look at anything in the match. I'm not asking for WWE to simply set up a hard-cam and let it go, but their decision to hide the mistakes ends up hiding the action along with it.

[Loss]

Yeah, WWE production is basically high fructose corn syrup.

[Parties]

Camera work is hugely important and plays so deeply into how well a match is received that I've always been surprised it's not discussed more often. Vince writing WWE often feels like what would happen if the mogul who runs a major film studio also tried to script all of the movies the studio produced while also acting in them. Like, no one expects Scott Rudin to write Captain Phillips and play the titular role. By the same token, Kevin Dunn producing/directing WWE often feels like a guy directing sports entertainment who has watched neither sports nor entertainment in the last 20 years.

 

And atmosphere is everything. The setting of great wrestling arenas and studios, the stylistic and regional nuances that are today such insightful time capsules into what Memphis was as a city in '77, or what New York and Tokyo were in '83. Kayfabe has become a dirty word, but kayfabe isn't about keeping fans in the dark: it's about shining the bright lights.