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Everyone should submit a ballot


Grimmas

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I've seen a few posts where people don't feel qualified to submit a ballot. They haven't seen this style or that era and feel like they would be doing the process an injustice. To those people, if you have been engaged in this process at all, if you are watching footage, then please put in a ballot

 

As we have seen from the WON HOF threads, that even people who are supposed to be experts are putting out lists that get questioned. If you don't have lucha, puro, shoot style, whatever it's all good. Someone else will not have your favourites on their list too.

 

This list is not supposed to be definitive. It is not supposed to be an all-time list that we look back at forever as The List. It's just a snapshot to follow up the snapshot done in 2006. How have things changed in the last ten years? Well, we can see. Then in 2026 this should be redone and we can all think about updating our lists.

 

All I am saying is, if you are interested at all, please put together a top 100 list (and maybe a top 25 tag team list) and send it in by WrestleMania 2016. We still have about 6 months. If you don't like a style, then ignore that style. If you love a certain style, then favour that style.

 

It's all about the journey and the discussion and it's in no way a quiz on you as a wrestling fan.

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There are a number of reasons that people have become self-conscious about putting ballots together and that a lot of people are hesitant to participate.

On one hand, "you've all watched enough wrestling to participate." On the other hand, "nobody but goodhelmet and KHawk have seen enough footage to fairly rank Bock and Flair."

Getting an account validated can take months, despite more than a dozen emails to various folks from here across different social media platforms and boards. How many interested, committed voters have given up simply because of indifference to them because they weren't around for the New Millenium Blues?
The fact that a small but excesssively vocal minority question not just the rankings on ballots, but continually take isssue with the motivation, methodology and morality behind them is difficult. If I was a lurker or on the fence, I'd be hesitant, too, knowing that, over a wrestling list, my integrity is at hazard.

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Can't speak to the validation issues but honestly, I haven't seen a lot of the other things you're talking about. Sure, when you're debating rankings with a group of intensely passionate nerds (said affectionately) you're going to see some testy exchanges, especially among people who've known each other for years. But I don't see shaming of newcomers for lack of knowledge or unpopular opinions. When a new poster introduces him/herself, an encouraging greeting often follows. I just don't buy that this is an overly harsh or discouraging environment.

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There are a number of reasons that people have become self-conscious about putting ballots together and that a lot of people are hesitant to participate.

On one hand, "you've all watched enough wrestling to participate." On the other hand, "nobody but goodhelmet and KHawk have seen enough footage to fairly rank Bock and Flair."

Getting an account validated can take months, despite more than a dozen emails to various folks from here across different social media platforms and boards. How many interested, committed voters have given up simply because of indifference to them because they weren't around for the New Millenium Blues?

The fact that a small but excesssively vocal minority question not just the rankings on ballots, but continually take isssue with the motivation, methodology and morality behind them is difficult. If I was a lurker or on the fence, I'd be hesitant, too, knowing that, over a wrestling list, my integrity is at hazard.

 

I didn't plan to post in this thread, but I felt like I needed to respond to this.

 

Fairly ranking Bock and Flair as it was posed in The Microscope is a different prospect than where to rank them on a GWE list. That thread was not presented as "Based on what you've seen, who do you prefer watching?" It was phrased as "Who's better?" I see those as two vastly different questions. Some don't, and that's fine. Some agree with me, and that's fine. But in my mind, the latter question requires a little more leg work to make the case, and it's not something I personally would feel comfortable doing unless I felt like the two wrestlers were on a level playing field -- not in terms of available footage volume but in terms of seeing them tested in similar scenarios over a similar period of time with similar opponents. My point was that not that Flair footage is more plentiful than Bock footage, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was that most people have seen a limited, favorable, skewed sample of Bockwinkel and I think it's misguided to make comparisons to the totality of Ric Flair's career based on that.

 

It's why I really struggle with the idea of ranking wrestlers and why ranking matches comes much easier to me -- I don't think I'd ever quite be satisfied with any list I made, while I can watch a match and immediately figure out what I think of it in comparison to other matches. I say that not to discourage people from turning in ballots. GWE has been a fun, fruitful project and it has served to introduce people to new wrestling, which is always a good thing. I think the process is more rewarding than seeing everyone's ballot anyway -- your extended viewing projects are one really cool example of that in practice. But regardless of what anyone else is doing, anyone who wants to turn a ballot should simply turn in a ballot.

 

As for the other points:

 

(1) There are probably only about 10 guys that posted here regularly in the New Millenium Blues days that still post here regularly today. Not among those are some of the more active and visible people on the board -- Childs, soup23, Jerry von Kramer, Matt D, dawho5, Johnny Sorrow, Grimmas and a host of others. If you feel like there's disinterest in new voices, I can't tell you that's wrong, and I'm sorry you feel that way. All I can say is that it's not intentional and I regret that it's what anyone thinks.

 

(2) We're going to debate methodology, and I think that's fair game. What purpose does a list serve if we're not allowed to debate those things? I don't see it as an issue of integrity being called into question, and it's not an attempt at consensus building so that everyone can consider wrestlers the same way. This is a wrestling message board. We respect the subject matter enough to treat it seriously, but that doesn't mean we're deathly serious about what one's wrestling opinions say about their character. (The answer in most cases is "nothing", by the way.)

 

(3) I respond to every request I get to sign up for the board. I usually admittedly do a clean sweep of the mailbox to create accounts every few weeks and I admit that I should be more on top of that. The problem with accounts created through the actual board function is that most of them are spam and there is no way to tell the difference between a real account and a spam account on the surface. I wish there was a way to address that problem as much as anyone.

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I appreciate the sentiment to this. I love this place because it challenges me to explore what's out there and you guys have really pushed me into discovering wrestling again after the Benoit murders. I watched more wrestling in the past 14 months than I did in the 5 years before that.

 

Honestly, I could submit a list. I do think about placements when looking at this list and I have been digging into a lot of diverse footage but I just don't feel it's my place to do so. I love reading these discussions and seeing what you have to say but I am comfortable in just being a spectator for this.

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I'll definitely be submitting a list but I can guarantee the moment I hit send I'll be like "Oh shit, I put wrestler x too low" and "wrestler Y is probably 30 spots better than they should really be ranked." If you've found this site, you're qualified to make a list. If you haven't found this site yet but hear about it before (or after) the deadline, you're still qualified to make a list. I think it is great that, since the beginning of the project, the architects of the project and mods of this site have made it very clear that they want as many people participating with as many different views as possible.

 

The reason we're all here is because we like pro wrestling and talking about it with other people on PWO. How is making a list of "These are the 100 Best Wrestlers I've Ever Seen" not super fun? What's even more fun is 100 other people making a list and everyone's list getting tabulated by a beautiful mind math wizard (so the rest of us don't have to do it) and spitting out a "results" top 100 that we can talk about further. That fucking rocks! Seriously I've made 2 or 3 "top 100 rough drafts" already and theyve all been different and I've had fun making every one.

 

I think people are getting stuck on the title "Greatest Wrestler Ever" and feel they aren't qualified unless they've seen and like everything. This project should be viewed as "Greatest Wrestlers I've Ever Seen."

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I'll be submitting a list. Have no problem whatsoever with their being gaps in my viewing. No matter how much you appreciate an artform chances are you will not see the majority of it produced, or even a number say above 50% for mass produced art like film, literature, TV, music, wrestling, etc. You go on what you have seen, that's the best you can do and it's all you can do.

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I can see why someone might feel hesitant. It's more than possible for someone too invested in this to be ridiculous in one's tone. Insulting, pretentious, petty and overly serious for something that should be subjective, fun, and about our shared love of wrestling, not about forcing forth some sort of cosmic truth.

 

That said, the place is the best out there and it's my first home on the internet, the site I check the most on any day. The project has been great and ALMOST everyone has been forgiving and understanding about people and their potential gaps, helpful in suggesting wrestlers and matches, and interested to hear what other people have to say.

 

THAT said, there isn't a single person on this website who I would value a list from more than Loss, due to what he's watched and how he thinks about wrestling. I'm self-conscious about my gaps, especially because they are important in the canon. If I had to send one person's list out into space in order for aliens to take a look at it and spare us due to the breadth and quality found within, I'd probably pick his, even if we certainly wouldn't agree about everything.

 

So yes, everyone should do one.

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I plan on submitting a list. I'll still have gaps by the time I have to submit it and I'm comfortable with that. For me it's been more about having a purpose in watching guys I never would of given any time to in the past and I've been having fun doing it.

 

I think I'm even more excited about the top 25 tag teams since I really love tag team wrestling. It should be interesting in seeing where certain teams will rank.

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My plan was (and still is) to watch something of everyone, just working my way down the list of nominees. I'm still on C. Currently on the fence about submitting a list.

That's a noble goal, but it's almost impossible. It's like setting yourself up for failure.

 

What what you can, everybody will have gaps.

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No. The issue was Parv's self importance in wanting "listener's only" to comment on his little vanity podcast project, and having an admin taking his side when there was a lot of actual discussions that could steem from actual posts in the threads, without being forced to listen to some podcast. (meanwhile, Parv's latest reaction to contradictors on the Flair thread in the GOAT poll forum was "lol", I guess because not listening to hours of podcasts makes us not worthy, while his reaction to GOTNW arguments on the podcast thread was "oh, I might as well write off this guy for good because he's a waste a time").

 

And "martyr" isn't even close to the right word. Just disappointed, really. It's not like I'm gonna loose sleep over this. But yeah, disappointed. Whatever.

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No one is saying you have to listen to any podcast, just don't comment on stuff you haven't listened to, especially since many of the points you raised we addressed specifically in those shows to the point it was comical to anyone that had actually listened. And I think it's fair as a basic principle for people to stay out of commenting on stuff where they have no clue what was said.

 

Also, please, "vanity project" -- all the hundreds of shows any of us have done and just this one is a vanity project? We have listeners, plenty of them, I really don't care who does and does not listen. Always been grateful to the people who do and for their support through feedback and donations. Is it so much to ask that you don't go wading into threads set up for specific shows? This isn't your finest hour El-P, and I've been a fan of some of your stuff in the past.

 

Anyway, not to derail ...

 

I'll be turning in a ballot, which I hope would make anyone else feel comfortable to do so considering how much stuff I've not seen or don't care for. It's a snap shot not a definitive end point.

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Had this conversation a few months back with Dylan and he convinced me that I should be a part of this. I'm so happy he talked me into doing this because I'm having so much fun diving into WoS, 1980's All Japan, and anything and everything involving Stan Hansen. I have weak spots that I'm doing my best to cover and weak spots, like modern Lucha, that I'm going to stay away from. I'm very happy with the progress I've made on this project. I encourage everyone to submit a ballot.

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I will be submitting a ballot. I think it's easier to wrap your head around your ballot once you go through the threads and posts and realize that 1) everyone has different voting criteria, so it's not like your list will be invalid, 2) basically everyone, even posters who are about as knowledgeable as you can be about wrestling, have admitted blind spots and 3) many, many people have explicitly stated that some people on the back end of their ballot will be there for personal and subjective reasons.

 

I think the great thing about this project has been the overall effort people have put in to covering their blind spots. It's been a blast for me to watch things I had never seen before.

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