Ricky Steamboat vs Bret Hart

[Loss]

Who would you rate higher and why?

 

I'd probably rate Steamboat higher because I think he peaked higher with the Flair series, because he was a better TV and house show worker and because he was elite for a much longer period of time. But I'd be willing to hear arguments for rating Bret higher too.

[shoe]

I've always thought this was the much more interesting argument as opposed to Bret vs Flair. I'd go with Steamboat as well. He mailed it in much less.Just look at the WWE network houseshows. Steamboat had better matches with Meng, and Smash than Bret would have with a guy considered a better worker in Ted Dibiase. On those same houseshows I've seen the Bezerker out work Bret in their house show match.Don't let me bring the 80's houseshow matches with Savage on their.He was a better tag worker. Steamboat had a little better babyface psychology than Bret. Even though people loved his arm drag. If it didn't make sense in the match he wouldn't use it. An example of this is the 84 hr draw he had with Flair. No arm drag, because he was working a headlock, not the arm. Both guys were great at making their opponent. Bret of course was the better heel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Pete, I am team Steamer too, but what are the Steamer vs. Haku / Darsow matches that are better than the Bret vs. Ted (Odessa, 89) match? That seems a big claim. I've always been high on that match and have it around ****, it's one of Teddy's better ones in WWF.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd want to think about this more, but my instinct is Steamboat. I tend to go back and fourth on Bret, where with Steamboat I've been consistent for the last decade or so in thinking he was great, but below the level of a true elite worker.

 

One thing I'd ask Steamboat backers to consider though is the fact that not only was Bret a better heel (since Steamer didn't work heel this is really not even a debate), but I think he generally displayed a greater amount of range as a face. By that I mean it's really hard for me to envision a compelling Steamboat face v. face match, and yet Bret as ace was able to do that against people like Waltman and Backlund very effectively. That should count for something.

[shoe]

Pete, I am team Steamer too, but what are the Steamer vs. Haku / Darsow matches that are better than the Bret vs. Ted (Odessa, 89) match? That seems a big claim. I've always been high on that match and have it around ****, it's one of Teddy's better ones in WWF.

I was referring to his one in 91 at MSG. All 3 matches were in 91 so I thought it was a fair comparison. Also 89 Bret wasn't over as a single star and worked his ass off to get noticed. In 91 he was established, but was willing to be lazy here and there.

[shoe]

 

 

One thing I'd ask Steamboat backers to consider though is the fact that not only was Bret a better heel (since Steamer didn't work heel this is really not even a debate), but I think he generally displayed a greater amount of range as a face. By that I mean it's really hard for me to envision a compelling Steamboat face v. face match, and yet Bret as ace was able to do that against people like Waltman and Backlund very effectively. That should count for something.

That's a fair point. Though Steamboat really didn't get that opportunity. I remember he had a pretty good babyface match with Dustin,but not at the level of Waltman match.

[Dylan Waco]

He may not have gotten those opportunities, but I don't see it in him either. I literally can't conceive of him working effectively in that setting. His style strikes me as too dependent on a clear "good v. evil" dynamic.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Pete, I am team Steamer too, but what are the Steamer vs. Haku / Darsow matches that are better than the Bret vs. Ted (Odessa, 89) match? That seems a big claim. I've always been high on that match and have it around ****, it's one of Teddy's better ones in WWF.

 

I was referring to his one in 91 at MSG. All 3 matches were in 91 so I thought it was a fair comparison.

Bit of a sly one though, cos the 91 Bret match with Ted that has always been pimped online is the one from SNME (which I like, about ***1/2) rather than that MSG one (which I always found weird cos I didn't buy him going for IC belt anyway), and both are probably better than the match Steamer had with Ted in 91 (KOTR).

 

Don't want to get hung up on the examples, and this post feels nit picky, but I don't think you're being entirely fair to Bret with those specific ones.

[shoe]

 

 

Pete, I am team Steamer too, but what are the Steamer vs. Haku / Darsow matches that are better than the Bret vs. Ted (Odessa, 89) match? That seems a big claim. I've always been high on that match and have it around ****, it's one of Teddy's better ones in WWF.

I was referring to his one in 91 at MSG. All 3 matches were in 91 so I thought it was a fair comparison.

Bit of a sly one though, cos the 91 Bret match with Ted that has always been pimped online is the one from SNME (which I like, about ***1/2) rather than that MSG one (which I always found weird cos I didn't buy him going for IC belt anyway), and both are probably better than the match Steamer had with Ted in 91 (KOTR).

 

Don't want to get hung up on the examples, and this post feels nit picky, but I don't think you're being entirely fair to Bret with those specific ones.

 

The point I was trying to make was that even Steamboat at his lowest as a human Dragon in 1991 was having better matches at MSG than Bret was as IC champ, and working harder. You are getting caught up on the Ted Dibiase part which is a foot note.

[shoe]

He may not have gotten those opportunities, but I don't see it in him either. I literally can't conceive of him working effectively in that setting. His style strikes me as too dependent on a clear "good v. evil" dynamic.

That's possible, again on the boxes I'm checking able to have a great babyface vs babyface style match would be low on my criteria. It's a cool feather to have in your cap though.

[JerryvonKramer]

What would be cool here is a list of like 3-4 prime Steamer house show matches from the mid-80s WWF run. I reckon those don't get talked about nearly enough and that run is often reduced to just Mania 3 with Savage.

 

I saw an awesome bout against Bob Orton Jr from 85, but what else is there? My impression is that most fans (including those here) are more familiar with the Bret oeuvre beyond the greatest hits than with the Steamer hidden gems.

[Grimmas]

I think Bret is a smarter worker. Bret's selling is different than Steamboat's, but I think it works better usually. Like Bret's offense better. Certainly was a better heel. Had better finishes.

 

Steamboat was great and didn't take nights off and was given more opportunities and better opponents to have better matches. If you value that, then he will be higher for you.

[shoe]

What would be cool here is a list of like 3-4 prime Steamer house show matches from the mid-80s WWF run. I reckon those don't get talked about nearly enough and that run is often reduced to just Mania 3 with Savage.

 

I saw an awesome bout against Bob Orton Jr from 85, but what else is there? My impression is that most fans (including those here) are more familiar with the Bret oeuvre beyond the greatest hits than with the Steamer hidden gems.

Well their is the Steamboat/Savage match from Toronto in Feb. which I liked better than Mania. He had a great match with Bret in 86. Jake Roberts from Boston. Don't have dates in front of me.

[Dylan Waco]

I still contend that Bret's finishes are overrated. In isolation almost any of the often cited ones are great. Taken as a whole it irks me that the "excellence of execution" and in many respects the ace, couldn't win with his finish more often. It's a similar issue to the people who talk about how Flair was too giving and came across as a weak champion, but in a way that is less obvious.

[Grimmas]

I still contend that Bret's finishes are overrated. In isolation almost any of the often cited ones are great. Taken as a whole it irks me that the "excellence of execution" and in many respects the ace, couldn't win with his finish more often. It's a similar issue to the people who talk about how Flair was too giving and came across as a weak champion, but in a way that is less obvious.

I always took it as only wimps submitted until Shamrock came around, so having a submission finisher really hurt you at that time. He did win a lot with the Sharpshooter though, like versus Austin or Perfect.

 

What I liked is that they would play of previous things he learned and would make sense, but still surprise you.

 

Of all the things I may knock Flair on, his finishes are generally fine when they weren't run ins.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's strange point when it comes to the Steamboat comparison because the finishes vs. Savage (WM3), Flair (all three, and each fall in Clash 6, see double chickenwing), and Rude (Beach Blast) all seem pretty memorable to me. Even if two of them are small packages and two others are non-finishes, the way they are built to is pretty perfect.

[Frankensteiner]

I will come back to this later, but as I said in the other thread, I rank Bret higher because of his versatility and variety of opponents.

 

The other thing is I really don't see where Steamboat was an elite worker for longer. Steamboat's peak was '89 - '94 whereas Bret's was '92 - '97, pretty similar although there was more inactivity for Steamboat during that period. There's really not much difference in Steamboat prior to '89 vs. Bret prior to '92. They were good to great workers, but not elite. Their match together in Boston would rank in the same spot on both guys best matches list pre-peak.

 

Both were similar in that they peaked in their mid to late 30s.

[shoe]

I think you could say Steamboat was great as early as 78.

[shoe]

I will come back to this later, but as I said in the other thread, I rank Bret higher because of his versatility and variety of opponents.

 

The other thing is I really don't see where Steamboat was an elite worker for longer. Steamboat's peak was '89 - '94 whereas Bret's was '92 - '97, pretty similar although there was more inactivity for Steamboat during that period. There's really not much difference in Steamboat prior to '89 vs. Bret prior to '92. They were good to great workers, but not elite. Their match together in Boston would rank in the same spot on both guys best matches list pre-peak.

 

Both were similar in that they peaked in their mid to late 30s.

Steamboat was great could be argued as early as 78. In 1983 Steamboat had the Final Conflict tag, in 1984 had great matches with Steamboat, and Dick Slater that is on tape.Steamboat was getting World Title matches against Harley Race as early as 78. From 78-84 Ricky Steamboat was working on top drawing big money. He drew more money from 78-84 than he did from 89-94. We just don't have a ton of full matches from him from 78-84. We have enough to show he was as good in 84 as he was in 89.

[JerryvonKramer]

I will come back to this later, but as I said in the other thread, I rank Bret higher because of his versatility and variety of opponents.

 

The other thing is I really don't see where Steamboat was an elite worker for longer. Steamboat's peak was '89 - '94 whereas Bret's was '92 - '97, pretty similar although there was more inactivity for Steamboat during that period. There's really not much difference in Steamboat prior to '89 vs. Bret prior to '92. They were good to great workers, but not elite. Their match together in Boston would rank in the same spot on both guys best matches list pre-peak.

 

Both were similar in that they peaked in their mid to late 30s.

 

Steamboat matches before 89 ....

 

Vs Flair, lots, circa 78 - garbage tapes with some clipping / JIP, but you can see how great these matches were and we get lots of them.

Vs Valentine / Iron Sheik 80 - again a bit JIP, but hot matches

Vs Funks, 82 - one of his better AJ matches

Final Conflict, Sarge and Kernodle, 83

Vs Briscos, 83 - some great stuff here

Vs Tully 84

Vs Flair 84 (Night of the Champions)

Vs Orton Jr 85

Vs Jake 86

Vs Savage 87

 

Just wondering what pre-92 Bret stuff you'd put against that? I mean doesn't seem an even contest to me.

[Dylan Waco]

I love the Steamboat v. Valentine match from 85 too among other things.

 

I'd argue Steamer's peak as 84-94

[Grimmas]

I really think I have Martel above Steamboat too. I think Martel is the better babyface worker. They are very similar, but Martel as a little better fire.

[Loss]

Is it controversial to also think Steamboat and Youngblood were better than the Hart Foundation?

[shoe]

I don't think it's controversial. I just don't think it's fair because their is so much more Hart Foundation footage .

[Grimmas]

Is it controversial to also think Steamboat and Youngblood were better than the Hart Foundation?

Probably a better babyface team.