Grimmas Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 My point is that the presentation of women in wrestling will have to drastically change, at least as far as WWE is concerned, for feminists in general to start becoming fans. Complete bullshit, becase 99% of people on this forum are feminists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Yes, Steven, but if I had to guess, most of us wrestling fans who also identify ourselves as feminists were wrestling fans first; feminism came later. By that time, we had an emotional connection to wrestling that we might not have had otherwise. Most of us stayed fans and continued watching even after the Benoit tragedy. I am not doing a very good job explaining myself, but my point is that for feminists who have never watched wrestling before, presentation would be a crucial factor. I just have anecdotal evidence, which I gave. In any case, Jimmy is by far the better person to speak on it. Brilliant post, btw. Also, as much as I wish it wasn't true, Indo agree with Parv's point about asshole crowds. We have come a long way from when an audience's idea of insulting a female star was chanting "slut", all the while wildly cheering on Rock for bragging about how much pie he gets every night, but the normal Raw crowd is still a far cry from the usual nXt crowds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Yes, Steven, but if I had to guess, most of us wrestling fans who also identify ourselves as feminists were wrestling fans first; feminism came later. By that time, we had an emotional connection to wrestling that we might not have had otherwise. Most of us stayed fans and continued watching even after the Benoit tragedy. I am not doing a very good job explaining myself, but my point is that for feminists who have never watched wrestling before, presentation would be a crucial factor. I just have anecdotal evidence, which I gave. In any case, Jimmy is by far the better person to speak on it. Brilliant post, btw. Also, as much as I wish it wasn't true, Indo agree with Parv's point about asshole crowds. We have come a long way from when an audience's idea of insulting a female star was chanting "slut", all the while wildly cheering on Rock for bragging about how much pie he gets every night, but the normal Raw crowd is still a far cry from the usual nXt crowds. My wife has no issues with NXT and loves Bayley. It's easy if you present women the way NXT does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 The NXT crowd did start calling Sasha 'ratchet'. I've been a fan of women's wrestling for about 15 years but I definitely wouldn't call myself a feminist because of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 As an example, if the Big Show wanted to challenge for the United States title, he could, and the resulting match of Kalisto versus Big Show wouldn't be met with controversy. This is despite the fact that the former is at a distinct disadvantage in terms of his size and strength. So, why would it generate controversy for, let's say, Asuka to challenge for the US title, even though the resulting bout would be far more evenly matched? Obviously, the average male competitor would be at size and strength advantage against an average female competitor but, again, I'd asked why such uneven contests would be more controversial than uneven contests amongst the men themselves. i've never understood the whole "it's unbelievable for men to compete against women, even if they're the same size or the woman's bigger!" talking point. Especially since the guys who believe that will often turn right around and have no problem cheering Rey Mysterio against Mark Henry or whatever else would be a ridiculously unbelievable fight in real life. And feminism has been the babyface multiple times in wrestling. Even in the middle of the Attitude era, one of the most misogynistic times in all of wrestling history, Chyna still managed to be one of the most popular babyfaces on the roster. Some people still bitched and moaned about how she ruined the IC title by wearing it, but clearly the paying fans loved it when she beat up men. And ODB had some similar success as an intergender asskicker in TNA. The precedent is there that the audience is perfectly willing to accept intergender matches on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Yes, Steven, but if I had to guess, most of us wrestling fans who also identify ourselves as feminists were wrestling fans first; feminism came later. By that time, we had an emotional connection to wrestling that we might not have had otherwise. Most of us stayed fans and continued watching even after the Benoit tragedy. I am not doing a very good job explaining myself, but my point is that for feminists who have never watched wrestling before, presentation would be a crucial factor. I just have anecdotal evidence, which I gave. In any case, Jimmy is by far the better person to speak on it. Brilliant post, btw. Also, as much as I wish it wasn't true, Indo agree with Parv's point about asshole crowds. We have come a long way from when an audience's idea of insulting a female star was chanting "slut", all the while wildly cheering on Rock for bragging about how much pie he gets every night, but the normal Raw crowd is still a far cry from the usual nXt crowds. I get your point but I would counter that I was a feminist before I was a wrestling fan and that's part of why I was less of a fan of WWE Attitude Era probably what drove me to focus more on shoot style and dryer wrestling products because I would rather see no women than have them represented so poorly The NXT crowd did start calling Sasha 'ratchet'. I've been a fan of women's wrestling for about 15 years but I definitely wouldn't call myself a feminist because of that. To be fair when that chant started it fit with her character as a goating chant because she was a heel and the crowd knew it would get under her skin similar to asshole or what chants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 And feminism has been the babyface multiple times in wrestling. Even in the middle of the Attitude era, one of the most misogynistic times in all of wrestling history, Chyna still managed to be one of the most popular babyfaces on the roster. Some people still bitched and moaned about how she ruined the IC title by wearing it, but clearly the paying fans loved it when she beat up men. This really has nothing to do with feminisn though. Chyna beating up men was basically a freak show. Plus she was a shit worker, the matches were horrible. Only Jeff Jarrett managed to get something pretty decent ot of her. The fact she wouldn't work with other women because she felt it was "beneath her" says a lot. Chyna was pushed that way because she was basically a man. That what got her over. She had the body of a man, yet no one would hit her because she was a woman. It played on social taboos, despite the fact she was almost as big and strong as the guys. Which was brillant, at first. When she became "just another guy", it negated everything unique about her gimmick. The fact she sucked as a worker was even worse, as it was painfull to see. Does NXT support for the women's matches and characters have anything to do with feminism? It seemed like they were just the best acts on the roster and responding to quality more than any type of statement. Pretty much. The fact Bailey is not oversexualised makes her a positive figure since she's also the underdog finally getting to the top (or course you could push it even further in term of social commentary about the whole "getting to the top" aspect of the game, but that would be questionning the entire sports realm). Then again, there's nothing wrong about sexualization in itself, as long as it's assumed as such from the point of view of the woman. Plus, one could argue that Bailey and her imagery are un-sexualized because it refers to childhood. I mean, the giant… stuff (dunno the name in English, well, in French probably either) during her entrance, her whole outfit have somethig "childish" about it. Well, not childish. But something refering to childhood, that's for sure. So. I dunno. I could probably deep deeper into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I don't know how anyone can say you were a wrestling fan before being a feminist. As a kid you thought women should be treated less then men, then you watched wrestling, then at some point you thought all genders should be treated equal? That's just bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Can't we just watch wrestling, sports, movies or other entertainment apolitically? Why actively seek out a coronary before it gets to you? Enjoy something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Can't we just watch wrestling, sports, movies or other entertainment apolitically? Everything is political. Plus, it's more fun to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I think that one reason why wrestling has a harder time with this than other arenas is because the body is so central to what a wrestler is. So the whole issue of sexualisation is foregrounded in ways that they might not be in the typical workplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Can't we just watch wrestling, sports, movies or other entertainment apolitically? Everything is political. Plus, it's more fun to think. Not everything is political. In the cases where its not, its imagining rather than thinking. But whatever works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I think that one reason why wrestling has a harder time with this than other arenas is because the body is so central to what a wrestler is. So the whole issue of sexualisation is foregrounded in ways that they might not be in the typical workplace. It's true in every sport though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I think that one reason why wrestling has a harder time with this than other arenas is because the body is so central to what a wrestler is. So the whole issue of sexualisation is foregrounded in ways that they might not be in the typical workplace. It's true in every sport though. In most sports they keep their tops on. Cena walks around semi-naked and has a six-pack. Sasha Banks has BOSS written across her arse. It's a more body-centric and image-centric medium than many other sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I think that one reason why wrestling has a harder time with this than other arenas is because the body is so central to what a wrestler is. So the whole issue of sexualisation is foregrounded in ways that they might not be in the typical workplace. It's true in every sport though. In most sports they keep their tops on. Cena walks around semi-naked and has a six-pack. Sasha Banks has BOSS written across her arse. It's a more body-centric and image-centric medium than many other sports. I was going to point out this is true about everything I mean as long as you have a physical body while doing your job someone is judging you based on it and based on what they expect from you due to your designated gender but, my point over all is more or less exactly what Jimmy hit on that there is no one size fits all answer not just for wrestling but for life. So really we need to all just be more open to everything is probably the first step to the fandom in general being more all inclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Can't we just watch wrestling, sports, movies or other entertainment apolitically? Everything is political. Plus, it's more fun to think. Not everything is political. In the cases where its not, its imagining rather than thinking. But whatever works. you don't think Hulk Hogan waving the flag of the United States and fighting the evil foreigner heels is political ? You don't think ethnic babyface Bruno Sammartino is political ? You don't think JYD being made a blakc babyface in the traditionnaly racist South is political ? You don't think Korean born Riki Choshu and Akira Maeda representing the rebel forces in 80's New Japan is political (I asked the question before, no one answered) ? There's so much political and social comments we can make out of pro-wrestling. It's actually fascinating. In most sports they keep their tops on. Cena walks around semi-naked and has a six-pack. Sasha Banks has BOSS written across her arse. It's a more body-centric and image-centric medium than many other sports. You don't think women like to watch some sports because they like to see athletic good looking young men getting at it ? Tennis is not sexualized at all with all the young women in short skirts ? Every sport is about the body, although some body are more desirable than others, following the current social norms. I wouldn't follow weightlifting if I was a woman. As a heterosexual guy I would follow beach volley if I had nothing else better to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Blowjob babyface is something that probably should be adressed, but maybe not in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Outside of combines and the draft process, to an extent, bodies aren't going to dictate opportunity in sports other than conclusions that teams may draw about a player's ability to maintain their fitness and skill level over time, which is an absolutely valid concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Feminism is a lot more nuanced than saying women ahould be treated equally to men, although that is its basic premise. Hell, even Donald Trump would agree on the former, a few seconds before he mocks a female reporter for being ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Feminism is a lot more nuanced than saying women ahould be treated equally to men, although that is its basic premise. Hell, even Donald Trump would agree on the former, a few seconds before he mocks a female reporter for being ugly. No it's not. That's the basis and premise and sadly that's not even met. Yes Trump would say that and then disprove he actually believes it by mocking a female reporter. He clearly treats women different than men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Blowjob babyface is something that probably should be adressed, but maybe not in this thread. That is kind of what I was touching on with the stuff about rats so really I'd love to talk about that as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Feminism is a lot more nuanced than saying women ahould be treated equally to men, although that is its basic premise. Hell, even Donald Trump would agree on the former, a few seconds before he mocks a female reporter for being ugly. No it's not. That's the basis and premise and sadly that's not even met. Yes Trump would say that and then disprove he actually believes it by mocking a female reporter. He clearly treats women different than men. The term has been co-opt by conservatives and used to mean radicalized militant misandry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Can't we just watch wrestling, sports, movies or other entertainment apolitically? Everything is political. Plus, it's more fun to think. Not everything is political. In the cases where its not, its imagining rather than thinking. But whatever works. you don't think Hulk Hogan waving the flag of the United States and fighting the evil foreigner heels is political ? You don't think ethnic babyface Bruno Sammartino is political ? You don't think JYD being made a blakc babyface in the traditionnaly racist South is political ? You don't think Korean born Riki Choshu and Akira Maeda representing the rebel forces in 80's New Japan is political (I asked the question before, no one answered) ? There's so much political and social comments we can make out of pro-wrestling. It's actually fascinating. I said not everything is political. This means certain things can be political. But just because something in wrestling was political doesn't mean everything is political. What's more, whether anything is really political depends on how broadly you define it. I don't think the examples you bring up are "political" in the sense that they're designed to make any kind of statement or exert any influence -- at least socially or politically. These are economic decisions made to generate sales and bump the box office that can be connected to the local or national political climate at those times. If promoters can capitalize on certain hot topics of the moment outside of the wrestling bubble, they'll do it. If not, they'll ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I can only speak for myself, but when I became a wrestling fan, while I believed firmly that women and men should be treated equally, I was too young/immature to understand many cases in which they were not treated equally. The disproportionate way in which the bodies and sexual appeal of female wrestlers was focused on compared to the male ones did not then strike me as being unfair. Every divas match would have the commentators, particularly Lawler, drool over them in a way that was very creepy. I think I am actually agreeing with what Steven and others are saying, but am expressing myself terribly, so I guess I won't debate this any further; at least not until I can compose my thoughts. Posting through your mobile is a nightmare, and I have no idea how you people do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports. I don't think I buy that. This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC. This is a pretend fight that I believe is art. Why can't women fight men the same way Nancy and Frank Sinatra sing a duet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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