Something to Wrestle with Bruce Prichard

[Beast]

Hassan episode is terrible.

No real insight, it's one of those "Conrad reads week to week results" shows. Bruce describes Hassan as being one of the first 3-dimensional Arab-American characters on TV post-9/11, but every segment described has him feeding into stereotypes. Apparently Vince thought Hassan was a real shades of grey character for some reason.

Bruce is adamant that Hassan was a top guy because he did matches/segments with Foley, Austin, Michaels, Cena, Taker, Edge, Big Show, Benoit, etc.... and that he was moved to Smackdown after being on Raw for only 6 months because he had done everything possible and it was time to face a bunch of new faces. 

Bruce's defense of airing the terrorist angle hours after the 7/7 bombings is embarassing. He refuses to accept any responsibility (for himself or WWE) instead saying things were out of their hands and that UPN basically forced them to air it with only a warning that appeared throughout the show for parental discretion. 

He is aghast anyone would admonish WWE for airing the segment and compares criticism of the decision to criticisizing lax airplane security in the US pre-9/11.....

WWE played into the real vitriol many Americans had toward the Middle East, but Bruce is shocked viewers would think WWE was using terrorism as a heat-seeker.

Conrad isn't really on Bruce's side during this, but he also doesn't nothing to push back.

Only reason I listened is it was a shorter episode and I needed something for drivetime radio. Embarrasing.

[C.S.]

42 minutes ago, Beast said:

Apparently Vince thought Hassan was a real shades of grey character for some reason.

Bruce is adamant that Hassan was a top guy because he did matches/segments with Foley, Austin, Michaels, Cena, Taker, Edge, Big Show, Benoit, etc.... and that he was moved to Smackdown after being on Raw for only 6 months because he had done everything possible and it was time to face a bunch of new faces.

Hassan was a shades of grey character...for the first 4-5 weeks.

After that, it was the same old foreign heel terrorist menace bullshit.

I wouldn't call Hassan a top guy, but I'd argue that he would have gotten there eventually - if the dreaded "backstage politics" didn't do him in first (and there were rumblings of that back then). He was a very strong upper midcarder for sure.

[Beast]

Agreed on the first few vignettes, but it sounds like Vince was excited about playing off the inherent racism of WWE crowds. What's the point in making your crowd the heels? Where do you go from there? I guess that's why they moved so quickly into having Hassan and Daivari commit blatant heel actions. And Conrad mentions Ivory making a terrorist/plane reference on the episode of Heat where Hassan's debut was announced for the following Raw. There was no subtlety or sympathetic points to Hassan's character as soon as he started interacting with WWE talent. 

I see him in more of the Jinder mold in that he was booked near the top of the card for a while, but rarely looked strong. I'd put the 2004 JBL run in that column too, but I know a lot are more positive towards that. Hassan's push came out of nowhere and the heat he was getting wasn't in reference to wanting to see him face top guys. His last appearance on Raw was facing Cena and losing in under 3 minutes. WWE forced him into top slots, but never let him earn any staying power, instead focusing solely on his gimmick to get him over.

I think the character had a lot of potential and I feel bad for Mark Copani in all of this. Bruce doesn't really touch on how WWE threw him under the bus and left him with nothing after 6 months of him doing what they wanted on TV, playing into American xenophobia. 

[SomethingSavage]

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 1:03 AM, Beast said:

Hassan episode is terrible.

No real insight, it's one of those "Conrad reads week to week results" shows. Bruce describes Hassan as being one of the first 3-dimensional Arab-American characters on TV post-9/11, but every segment described has him feeding into stereotypes. Apparently Vince thought Hassan was a real shades of grey character for some reason.

Bruce's defense of airing the terrorist angle hours after the 7/7 bombings is embarassing. He refuses to accept any responsibility (for himself or WWE) instead saying things were out of their hands and that UPN basically forced them to air it with only a warning that appeared throughout the show for parental discretion.

I don't know, man. Regarding the "reading results week to week" deal, I feel like we listened to two entirely different episodes or something.

I mean, sure. Conrad read what Hassan was doing. But for the first hour, there were like 4 match results - versus Maven, Slaughter, and his OVW stuff. Pretty much everything else was about the character's creation & those early vignettes. I thought it flew by and sounded like a natural conversation.

Things eventually slowed down after they got into 2005, and it admittedly became more about what Hassan was doing week to week on television. But when your subject matter has SUCH a short shelf life, that's to be expected. Plus this was nowhere near as bad as the Edge or Punk episodes, which both felt like a list of results being read, with Prichard occasionally chiming in with an opinion here or there. This was much more of a back & forth.

As far as Bruce's reactions go? You're absolutely right, man. And his response to Conrad asking why they didn't just edit the ski mask attack out of the show was even worse. I literally shook my head for a second after hearing Bruce behave like a child and cry out some bullshit about how hindsight could have given us better security at the airports & prevented 9/11 or whateverthefuck. It was a far reach to say the least, and it was clearly the kind of thing someone says when they feel cornered or outfoxed.

I *will* play devil's advocate for a second though and say I can absolutely see why Vince would initially see value in this character. I wasn't surprised at all to hear that it was Vince's pet project at the time. And the comment about it being detrimental to position your audience as the heels rings true, but I don't believe that was ever actually the intent.

I think you're underestimating Vince in this case, because - say what you will about the old man being out of touch at specific points and times - the man has a pretty fucking good track record when it comes to tweaking things and fine tuning the finishing touches on characters to get a desired reaction. I realize it may be more popular to just claim the old man is past his expiration date these days, but I think he clearly saw the kind of heat he wanted to draw with this thing.

Yes. It was designed to point out xenophobia and play on the post-9/11 fears and prejudices. And it used a nugget of truth to set things up. But it felt as if it was done by design. Of course, any great antagonist believes they're actually the protagonist - their actions are justified in their minds. BUT part of the equation also involves them using extreme measures to get what they want. That's part of what separates the heroes from the villains as well. They are willing to take the shortcuts or use any means necessary to get what they desire.

Vince made sure to utilize that aspect when he had Hassan go from simply pointing out Americans' prejudice... to making radical statements about beating respect out of them and rubbing their faces in it.

On top of that, Hassan was an Arab American, denouncing his citizenship to this country (by gawd, OUR country!) that welcomed him in the first place.

Yet *another* source of heat was introduced when he even turned on his fellow Arab Americans and verbally ran them down as well.

So the whole deal of Vince making Hassan this deep "shades of grey" character seems a little... off... to me. I just don't get that vibe. Was it more thought-provoking or inspired than the usual pro wrestling tough guy? Sure. No doubt. But there never looked to be any actual desire to make him a baby face to any audience of any kind on any level. That just doesn't appear to be the case with anything they produced with the character.

In the end, I think all the message boards and e-fed writers at the time simply outsmarted themselves. Everyone was buzzing about what a brilliant concept this was, but pro wrestling just doesn't function beyond a certain level. Vince knows that. And it's why he kept Hassan in spots to garner heat - never cheers.

The whole story of Kurt winding Hassan up and sending him to tell Eddie not to use his finisher was more of the backstage bullshit from that time. It makes for a fun story for people to hear down the line, but it's an unfortunate snapshot of the way new guys were hazed in that time. Hassan at least has a great attitude about it and even tells the story himself in a positive, upbeat way.

SummerSlam. Batista's hometown. The nation's capital. OF COURSE Vince would have considered putting the belt on Hassan there. Doubt the run would have amounted to much, but the idea seems precisely like something Vince would do in that situation.

[flyonthewall2983]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:16 AM, Beast said:

I think the character had a lot of potential and I feel bad for Mark Copani in all of this. Bruce doesn't really touch on how WWE threw him under the bus and left him with nothing after 6 months of him doing what they wanted on TV, playing into American xenophobia. 

Wasn't he assaulted by marks when he wasn't even working for them anymore?

I forget if it was Facebook or Twitter but one of the comments on the post announcing this show asked Bruce what he thought of ruining a man's life, which I thought was funny (I can have a dark sense of humor sometimes).

[flyonthewall2983]

Finished the Heenan episode. Quite emotional towards the end, I didn't realize just how close they were. Bruce said, and I think he's absolutely right, that if Heenan had a podcast it would be huge. 

[SomethingSavage]

I meant to include this in my original post, but one of the more overlooked (and fascinating to me) things mentioned was Vince's patriotism. It's obviously a recurring theme and a staple in his booking over the years. It's glossed over quickly in the podcast, but Bruce briefly mentions it was around the time of the Hassan character that people were explaining to Vince how the hyper, amped up American patriotism doesn't play so well in foreign markets.

And that's easy enough to understand, but I wish we would have heard more detail about that. Was it a tough pill for Vince to swallow? He has clearly kept going back to the patriotic angle here & there since, although it *maybe* has been dialed down a bit? I don't know for sure, but several people have talked how Vince sort of sees himself as that Hulk-A-Mania / Lex Express type brought to life.

I actually think something like that would make for far more interesting & satisfying subject matter - with Bruce giving a bit of an inside track on Vince's reaction to certain shifts & directional changes in the company over the years.

[flyonthewall2983]

It might have been dialed down a bit, perhaps given the fact that it appears all that energy will go towards the reboot of the XFL. It gives some credence to the news that Vince has put his personal money into this.

Just as an aside, I have to say I really like the artwork for each episode of this, and Bischoff's show. Some of it's a little too goofy, most of it is funny, but this week's episode on Bash At The Beach '94 has a really nice one that could be almost a one-sheet for the show itself.

[SomethingSavage]

Just to go back to the Mero/Sable talk for a moment, I recently revisited the (excellent) Kevin Kelly PTBN interviews covering this time period.

Kevin isn't as afraid to talk numbers as Bruce, and so the subject of Mero's contract comes up. Kevin says the talk backstage was that Mero was signed to a contract that had him earning more annually than both Taker and Bret - upfront.

Of course Taker and Bret ended up earning more with all things considered each year, but Mero was originally signed to such a huge deal that it guaranteed him more than them before merchandise and extras came into consideration.

Whether that's true or not - if you can just imagine that was the talk at the time, then it's easy to understand why fellow newcomers like Foley and Austin would be upset & envious.

Kevin also suggests this was why Vince was so adamant about pushing Sable out front & center as a big money earner for them later. It's basically suggested that Vince looked at Mero as a bad investment, but he was able to balance things out in his mind by earning so much off Sable in the long run. Of course they would've pushed Sable anyway once she got over the way she did, but yeah. It does make sense for a successful business to justify things that way when you think about it.

I was getting some shit done around the house, and I wanted some background noise. I went with my mp3 of the "AJ Styles in TNA" episode of Something Else To Wrestle, because it was a shorter show.

Anyway, near the end, Conrad brings up AJ's contract. He refers to a Meltzer quote that claims AJ was the highest paid TNA wrestler without any WWE background.

Bruce corrects him and claims there were at least 2 guys in the company that had bigger contracts. He doesn't give names - but does say that both now work for WWE.

It's gotta be Bobby Roode and Samoa Joe, right? I tried thinking about who was on their roster at the time, and I couldn't come up with anyone else.

I know Roode renegotiated after the Beer Money split (probably right in time for the heel World Champ run), but I've never heard or seen any talk about Joe's deals.

It's not anything I've ever thought about, but I'd be curious to know now that it's been put out there.

[Beast]

Invasion podcast hits the WWE apologist bingo:

A) It wasn't worth going after any of the bigger stars because they were on huge contracts and wouldn't want to come in (disregarding Flair and the nWo came in immediately after the angle ended).

B ) Bagwell and Booker was the absolute best pairing they could have put on as the initial WCW match, despite tales of Bagwell being unfit to perform backstage. Bruce also claims WCW and their wrestlers were so unpopular that it wouldn't have made a difference if they save the initial match for next week's Raw in Atlanta.

C) DDP wouldn't have gotten over as his WCW character in WWE anyway so why not have him stalk the Undertaker's wife instead of have him run in from the crowd to Diamond Cutter wrestlers? Bruce acts like WCW 2000-2001 cancels out anything that came before it, so obviously DDP, Goldberg, Booker T, etc... weren't over anymore.

[SomethingSavage]

The James Storm sidebar was the best thing about the Invasion episode, and I'm not even kidding. With the crazy number of downloads their two TNA episodes got, I'm surprised they haven't revisited some of those subjects with individual episodes. I mean, I guess you could count that AJ one on the Network. But it could be fun to hear Bruce go in depth about certain events, angles, or workers from his time there.

It was also cool to hear Bruce say 100% positive things about Chuck Palumbo.

Other than that, it was mostly what you'd expect. All the usual shtick was used - "You're trying to apply logic to an illogical situation!" "When you've booked a profitable promotion, then you can talk." And on & on & on. I get that it's the theme of the show at this point, but they really need to retire some of these or at least put them in rotation. Piling them on this way just makes portions of the show grating & off-putting for even dedicated listeners.

Conrad *did* get a few good jabs in on Bruce though. It was particularly funny when he called Bruce out for claiming WWF fans didn't want to see WCW guys and vice versa - and then later claiming the fan bases were actually almost entirely one in the same.

There was a thought-provoking discussion hidden somewhere in that DDP debate, but it never quite got explored as much as I would've liked. Bruce says it's the talent's job to get the creative direction over, regardless of how rotten it is. And Conrad's stance is that creative should stick with what the talent knows & what they CAN do, rather than shoehorning them into these goofy, awful angles and characters that don't fit.

[Cox]

I think when it comes to the period where Bruce was on the creative team, the shows tend to be more miss than hit, because Bruce often feels compelled to defend some of his more questionable booking decisions. He could have easily said he didn't get the DDP character and moved on, but I don't know that he has enough self-awareness to realize that, and just blames DDP for not being able to get the Sara Undertaker stalker angle over, when it would have been a tough one to get over even in the best of situations.

It also feels like a copout for Bruce to say that nobody cared about WCW and that WCW had died and nobody cared anymore, when Invasion did the best non-Wrestlemania buyrate in company history. That was really something Conrad should have pushed Bruce on further. Clearly, there was interest in WWF and WCW finally facing off, even with the largely midcarders + DDP and Booker T crew that WWF brought in to represent WCW. There was meat on the bone and WWF creative squandered it, and that's something I wish Conrad had questioned Bruce on more than the DDP stuff, which is more of symptom than disease.

On a personal note, I remember being on vacation in Jamaica when the Booker T/Buff Bagwell match took place in Atlanta in 2001, and this was before the days where the internet was everywhere, so I had no idea it happened until I came back the following weekend and my friends told me "Yeah, WCW had their first match on Raw and it was this huge disaster." It was kind of hard to fathom at the time that WCW popped up out of nowhere, with no buildup, and had a match that was so bad and so disastrous that it killed the whole thing. I couldn't believe it at the time. I know Bruce tried to pooh pooh it, but they really should have waited until they got to Atlanta for the first WCW match, and I think that's at least partially because I don't think Vince quite understood the history of what WCW meant to Atlanta in the 90's. Bruce kind of illustrated that with this episode, at least indirectly.

[SomethingSavage]

Yup. It was also very Vince of Bruce to insist on referring to Tacoma as "Seattle" throughout the whole thing.

I honestly don't know if he realized he was doing it.

[El-P]

That DDP bit on the Invasion episode was another level of absurd. Even bored Conrad could not let that fly this time around, as he went back to it at the beginning of the following week's show. Bruce was amazingly dishonest on that one. Sure, DDP diamond cutting people led to WCW going out of business.  (he didn't put it that way, but basically implied that it was not a good thing to do because if it had worked that great in WCW, they would still be in business)

Also, the post 2001 episodes always are really non-eventful. Wonder why... 

[El-P]

(double post - any way to delete it ?)

[flyonthewall2983]

I listened to the DDP bit and yeah, Bruce's true colors are flying pretty high here. But that is, strange as it sounds, the beauty of the show. He is a direct conduit to the McMahon mindset. He's certainly got his own opinions which maybe stand contrary to Vince's, but Bruce was indoctrinated by working there long enough you can see the way a very complex mind works. 

[El-P]

Agreed.

The other bit that was fascinating was the conversation about how it didn't matter to debut the Invasion in Atlanta, but it made sense to debut it with Lance Storm because they were in Calgary that week. You could hear Conrad's brain explode while he was trying to find the logic in it. Only to have Bruce answer that basically, there wasn't any. That's just how Vince works. Which, in a way, kinda expose him. It was interesting to hear that Bruce himself would simply not have done the Invasion angle.

[flyonthewall2983]

At least when it comes to DDP, the company have come around and recognized him through the Yoga program and have brought him in from time to time to their training facilities, etc. And certainly centering his Hall of Fame induction around his WCW career where he was most over, and not trying to justify themselves as to how abysmally they used him in 2001. 

[SomethingSavage]

You guys are right about Bruce being a conduit to Vince with many of his explanations & justifications. That's absolutely the appeal of the show. When he shouts shit like, "Were you there? I was there!" Well, that pretty much sums up why any of it's worth hearing in the first place.

I *did* laugh when he told the story of him and Vince glancing around MSG, only to find out both of them were simultaneously searching for high places to have Zach Gowen thrown from.

I may be the only person on the planet in thinking this, but I would've dug seeing that mask versus hair stipulation (or something similar) play out. I thought the Mr. America angle was silly fun. Quiet, you. Don't judge me.

But if I have to hear Bruce describe someone or something as an "attraction" ever again, it'll be about a week too soon.

[El-P]

2 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

I *did* laugh when he told the story of him and Vince glancing around MSG, only to find out both of them were simultaneously searching for high places to have Zach Gowen thrown from.

Yeah, that and the "Signing the wrong one legged man" story that never ever get old. The fact Bruce is a great storyteller when he wants to is what still saves the show for me and still have me listen to it weekly, despite the annoying bullshit.

[flyonthewall2983]

Him and Conrad have genuine chemistry as podcasters which elevate it to not just being a great wrestling show but a great podcast period. The routines and other stuff people might find annoying is probably less in volume compared to WHW which I'm guessing has gotten a bit too "Bob & Tom" for my tastes.

[El-P]

The SummerSlam 97 edition was good. Bruce tells fun stories about the wrestling cruise, Conrad seemed motivated as it's a really interesting time in the company (and his favourite year, as it should, really), very few if any bitching about the dirt-sheet. The following editions could be good too as they tackle subjects which are hot periods (Hogan 89 - SummerSlam 98 - SummerSlam 88). Hopefully this is a return to form now that they don't have the burden of the Network version show to do.

[SomethingSavage]

Co-signed on all that. Loved the cruise stuff.

Bruce also busted out a rare, thought-provoking talking point by comparing & contrasting the demeanor & presentation of Shamrock with that of the Road Warriors. Wish they would've gone deeper with that, and I'm actually stoked for any future show covering Ken. Conrad has consistently shown interest in discussing Shammy, too. So here's hoping.

I'm glad the Russo influence was addressed. The Canada/US stuff is something that still has Corny's fingerprints on it. And I know for sure he was still heavily involved in the week to week stuff up until the holidays that year. Even Russo (who has changed his story from time to time) has admitted that Corny was still in on the creative up until the NWA stuff in '98. He was for sure making suggestions all the way up until Funk's debut with Foley also. I mean, I'm sure Russo would gladly take credit for all the great stuff in '97, but nah. This wasn't the "all Russo" show just yet.

It was cool to hear Bruce express such joy and genuine interest in discussing the World Title scene from this time. The various stories with Taker, Shawn, Bret, Kane, Austin, and others off in the peripheral clearly helped to create an atmosphere of excitement and anticipation around the belt.

It's crazy to consider how valuable and revered the WWF Championship was at one time - so much so that we got the tug of war between Bret/Shawn and eventually Bret/Vince over the thing. Compare that to today, when the WWE Championship hasn't really meant anything since the AJ/Cena series - and the Universal Title is so worthless they can't even be bothered to use it as the MacGuffin it's meant to be, in order to move stories along. It's night & day.

They toned the shtick way down overall, and that's appreciated. Bruce does still try to dig his heels in and bullshit his way out of a corner or two, but Conrad plays his part and calls him on it. If that's the most shtick you'll get from them, then that's a pretty good day.

This week, it was Conrad asking if Shawn could be trusted to stick around and work with Bret after the heel turn. Bruce said nobody was worried, because he would stay & do business. Conrad replies that Shawn didn't when he was told to put Bret over at Mania 13. Bruce *tries* to fire back by saying Shawn wasn't scheduled to, but he can't even stand by that line of bullshit very long before he corrects course and admits Conrad was right. From there, Bruce basically changes his story on the fly and says he expressed his concerns about Shawn walking out again, but Vince was convinced Shawn could be trusted & that's ultimately all that matters.

Of course, Bruce is right. But it's just such a telling sign of his nature summed up in one small exchange.

Decent show though. One of their better "event" shows covering a specific PPV in a long time. I'm normally not a fan of these, but this one was solid.

[SomethingSavage]

There's some solid coverage & discussion of Earthquake on the latest Hogan episode. The story of Vince telling Bruce to go find out if Tenta can cut a promo is a fun one, too.

Much of the episode is retreaded territory, because the time period ('89-'90) overlaps with so many of their previous topics. But it's still got some good stuff and examines a few of those things from new angles. Plus, there are absolutely NO dirtsheet detours or Meltzer tirades. That alone is greatly appreciated.

There's this bit where Conrad is describing how Bruce dresses for day to day activities & just life in general. Conrad notes each item in hilarious detail. Hobo shoes. Cheap ankle socks. Free "Something To Wrestle" shirt. Etc. To summarize though, Conrad basically says everything Bruce wears amounts to approximately $4... and then he tops it off with his legit diamond-encrusted Rolex. Tremendous.

Sheik Tugboat never fails to crack me up. Also enjoyed the story of Hulk daydreaming the full movie fight scene for No Holds Barred.

Oh, and I thought the Q&A to close the show was exceptionally strong this week. I can't recall another session ever being this good, to be honest. Some genuinely interesting topics are brought up and answered by Prichard for a change. I especially dug the talk about Hulk's merchandise versus Austin's.

The topic of Hulk's Top Five best opponents comes up, too. And, when names start being listed, it really hits you just how many awesome opponents and programs Hogan was involved with. It almost feels like you could come up with several uniquely separate lists of Top Five opponents for Hulk without ever repeating a single name.

Stick around for the Dok Hendrix parody at the end. It's fucking aces. Sounds like they got the Austin impersonator from the Edge & Christian podcast to come in and sing Highway To Hell, too. It's some funny shit.

[CarpetCrawler]

8 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

Plus, there are absolutely NO dirtsheet detours or Meltzer tirades. That alone is greatly appreciated.

That's all you had to tell me for me to be sold.  I will make a note to listen to this one!!