UFC 203: Because CM Punk is finally fighting

[Robert S]

 

 

 

The really sad part is that CM Punk probably doesn't even realize that his health, safety, and well-being was as exploited by Dana White and Duke Roufus as it ever was by Vince McMahon and WWE.

Probably worse. For as bad as wrestling is for you, most wrestlers don't end up with pugilistic dementia. I remember when I was a kid, me and my cousin wanted to take up boxing, so we asked my uncle to take us to train and he looked at us and said, "no, everyone who boxes ends up with slurred speech." Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were just on the Dan LeBatard show and even though both of their bodies are broken they are still cutting promos like its 1985.

 

How many former employees (sorry, independent contractors) of Vince McMahon did not reach the age of 60 or even 45? As much as he disgusts me, I highly doubt that number will ever be anything resembling like that for Dana White.

 

Are we pretending that those were problems with the act of wrestling vs. the act of fighting in a cage? Drugs, steroids, suicide, etc. are problems with pro wrestling, but have much more to do with the culture around the sport than the sport itself.

 

Let's just say I could not sleep well or look at myself into the mirror if I made a billion dollars while my employees were dying left and right and only starting to do something against it when my company got into the headlines when an employee killed his wife and son with his bare hands. He might not have been responsible for drugs or steroids in the business but he definitely fostered an environment where taking them was advantageous.

[supremebve]

 

I disagree with a few of your points, first MMA fighters have just as much steroids, drug, etc. culture as pro wrestling. There are tons of fighters from years past who admitted and have been caught with drugs and steroids to the point the UFC has had to shoot itself in the foot with USADA busting some of their top stars to quell the risk of scandal of their sport being revealed as "dirty".

Second the day to day training for a fighter during fight camp is more damaging and intense but they also get a hell of a lot more time off and few fight more than 3/4 times a year on the major stage compared to all the dates pro wrestlers in the past worked hurt or not. Also even Daniel Cormier said when he tried out pro wrestling that it was way harder bumping all the time than training for Olympic Wrestling or MMA because you have to let your opponent beat you up whereas in fighting you can control a lot of the damage coming your way or stop guys dead without taking any shots.

With Chuck Liddell sure he does have a significant change in his speech patterns and expressing his thoughts verbally but he was also a noted partier who was rumored to be a heavy cocaine user and drinker. Also since you mention Tito in your Chuck example he sounds the same from his UFC debut in 1997 to now and he took as many shots and trained harder than almost anyone of his era and came out fine.

As for wrestlers not showing trauma look at Foley during his prime years in the mid nineties, the man went from ECW/IWA Japan doing hardcore style and cutting the best promos of his career to WWF in the Attitude era only 2 years later and admitted in his book and in Beyond The Mat as suffering horrible memory loss and getting lost trying to find his own house driving home or his room in hotels on many occasions due to the increased amount of dates week in and week out causing way more wear and tear than the sporadic ECW/Japan commitments.

So it's not cut and dry and really comes down to the individual, their genetics, the damage they took and the way they took care of their bodies and health.

My first point was that those things aren't actually parts of the sport in this context. All of those things are clearly reasons both sports are more dangerous than they have to be, but you can do both activities and never participate in any of those things. So, sure they're not exclusive to either sport but neither sport exclusively employs drug addicts and steroid users.

 

The day to day training for a fighter, especially one at the UFC level is pretty brutal, that is why so many fights get cancelled. I was listening to a podcast where a couple of MMA journalists were talking about some of the craziest things they seen at training camps, and one of them was how no one wears headgear while sparring. Another thing was how many places take pride in their "hard" practices where they basically spar at full power multiple times a week. There is a good chance that Cain Velasquez, who probably should be the best heavyweight of all time's, entire career has been destroyed the debilitating injuries he's suffered in practice. Daniel Cormier, who has suffered his share of practice injuries, has been an elite wrestler since he was a child, of course he gets beat up more doing pro wrestling than in Olympic wrestling or MMA. He's not an elite pro wrestler. Other than the aforementioned Cain Velasquez, who Cormier coach, there really isn't anyone who is going to be able to compete with him enough to beat him up in the gym.

 

It isn't just Chuck's speech that was the problem, he was physically deteriorated in a way that he went from having one of the best chins in the sport to one of the worst over night. Sure, his lifestyle probably didn't help, but him blocking punches with his face didn't help either. Tito, for what it is worth, only really took major head trauma while fighting Chuck. Of his 5 KO/TKO losses, 2 were from body damage, one was essentially from exhaustion, and the two Liddell fights which he kind of turtled up and let the ref stop it once he was hurt. Don't get me wrong, he's taken his damage over the years, but he was always smart about not taking too much damage.

 

Foley is not typical for pro wrestling though. It's amazing that he's still alive based on how he treated his body over the years. Let's say John Cena, who is clearly harder on his body than most pro wrestlers, is the typical pro wrestler. How long is realistic for him to wrestle a full career? 20-25 years? Do you think somoene like Max Holloway, who is a 26 year old champion can fight for 20-25 years? He won his belt from Jose Aldo, who is about as good of an MMA fighter who has ever lived, but is clearly past his prime at 31 years old. He's not a guy who took a lot of damage in fights, but he's clearly deteriorated in a way that is obvious to anyone who has watched his career. A 31 year old pro wrestler who isn't going out of their way to work a dangerous style is not someone you'd generally call past their prime.

 

I think the real issue is how many punches to the face do you have to take, before you learn how to effectively defend punches to the face? How many times do you bang your head off of a mat, before you perfect your takedown defense? How much does a kick to the head actually scramble your brain? Learning pro wrestling means learning how to make it look like you got punched in the face, how to minimize the damage you take on slams and suplexes, and not getting legit knocked unconscious by getting kicked in the head. Training combat sports you actually take all the damage you are faking in pro wrestling.

[SPS]

 

 

I disagree with a few of your points, first MMA fighters have just as much steroids, drug, etc. culture as pro wrestling. There are tons of fighters from years past who admitted and have been caught with drugs and steroids to the point the UFC has had to shoot itself in the foot with USADA busting some of their top stars to quell the risk of scandal of their sport being revealed as "dirty".

Second the day to day training for a fighter during fight camp is more damaging and intense but they also get a hell of a lot more time off and few fight more than 3/4 times a year on the major stage compared to all the dates pro wrestlers in the past worked hurt or not. Also even Daniel Cormier said when he tried out pro wrestling that it was way harder bumping all the time than training for Olympic Wrestling or MMA because you have to let your opponent beat you up whereas in fighting you can control a lot of the damage coming your way or stop guys dead without taking any shots.

With Chuck Liddell sure he does have a significant change in his speech patterns and expressing his thoughts verbally but he was also a noted partier who was rumored to be a heavy cocaine user and drinker. Also since you mention Tito in your Chuck example he sounds the same from his UFC debut in 1997 to now and he took as many shots and trained harder than almost anyone of his era and came out fine.

As for wrestlers not showing trauma look at Foley during his prime years in the mid nineties, the man went from ECW/IWA Japan doing hardcore style and cutting the best promos of his career to WWF in the Attitude era only 2 years later and admitted in his book and in Beyond The Mat as suffering horrible memory loss and getting lost trying to find his own house driving home or his room in hotels on many occasions due to the increased amount of dates week in and week out causing way more wear and tear than the sporadic ECW/Japan commitments.

So it's not cut and dry and really comes down to the individual, their genetics, the damage they took and the way they took care of their bodies and health.

My first point was that those things aren't actually parts of the sport in this context. All of those things are clearly reasons both sports are more dangerous than they have to be, but you can do both activities and never participate in any of those things. So, sure they're not exclusive to either sport but neither sport exclusively employs drug addicts and steroid users.

 

The day to day training for a fighter, especially one at the UFC level is pretty brutal, that is why so many fights get cancelled. I was listening to a podcast where a couple of MMA journalists were talking about some of the craziest things they seen at training camps, and one of them was how no one wears headgear while sparring. Another thing was how many places take pride in their "hard" practices where they basically spar at full power multiple times a week. There is a good chance that Cain Velasquez, who probably should be the best heavyweight of all time's, entire career has been destroyed the debilitating injuries he's suffered in practice. Daniel Cormier, who has suffered his share of practice injuries, has been an elite wrestler since he was a child, of course he gets beat up more doing pro wrestling than in Olympic wrestling or MMA. He's not an elite pro wrestler. Other than the aforementioned Cain Velasquez, who Cormier coach, there really isn't anyone who is going to be able to compete with him enough to beat him up in the gym.

 

It isn't just Chuck's speech that was the problem, he was physically deteriorated in a way that he went from having one of the best chins in the sport to one of the worst over night. Sure, his lifestyle probably didn't help, but him blocking punches with his face didn't help either. Tito, for what it is worth, only really took major head trauma while fighting Chuck. Of his 5 KO/TKO losses, 2 were from body damage, one was essentially from exhaustion, and the two Liddell fights which he kind of turtled up and let the ref stop it once he was hurt. Don't get me wrong, he's taken his damage over the years, but he was always smart about not taking too much damage.

 

Foley is not typical for pro wrestling though. It's amazing that he's still alive based on how he treated his body over the years. Let's say John Cena, who is clearly harder on his body than most pro wrestlers, is the typical pro wrestler. How long is realistic for him to wrestle a full career? 20-25 years? Do you think somoene like Max Holloway, who is a 26 year old champion can fight for 20-25 years? He won his belt from Jose Aldo, who is about as good of an MMA fighter who has ever lived, but is clearly past his prime at 31 years old. He's not a guy who took a lot of damage in fights, but he's clearly deteriorated in a way that is obvious to anyone who has watched his career. A 31 year old pro wrestler who isn't going out of their way to work a dangerous style is not someone you'd generally call past their prime.

 

I think the real issue is how many punches to the face do you have to take, before you learn how to effectively defend punches to the face? How many times do you bang your head off of a mat, before you perfect your takedown defense? How much does a kick to the head actually scramble your brain? Learning pro wrestling means learning how to make it look like you got punched in the face, how to minimize the damage you take on slams and suplexes, and not getting legit knocked unconscious by getting kicked in the head. Training combat sports you actually take all the damage you are faking in pro wrestling.

 

 

Alright I misunderstood your thoughts on the drug culture in MMA & Pro Wrestling and I absolutely agree with you that nether are directly necessary to participate in either of them or an inevitable cause of being a participant in them.

 

As for MMA camps and training of course you can hear stories about some camps like AKA being notorious for their hard and often dangerous methods and they are roundly criticized for it more and more and camps just like Chute Box and Lions Den back in the day among others have been discussed by longtime fans now as having taken a lot of years off fighters prime due to their hard training style.

 

As for headgear it is actually more dangerous to wear and lots of amateur combat sports are abandoning it due to it increasing risk of concussion due to the added weight and strain on the head and neck when sparring with it while trying to see and avoid blows and also it leads to a false sense of security and causes people to absorb more shots with it on. This article covers it well,

 

https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-wearing-headgear-anymore/

 

As for Cain's career being ruined by injuries I'd say his work in the weight room doing incredibly foolish things with too much weight, poor form and absurd reps did as much if not more damage long term to his body than just hard sparring. Copy this link and see this awful kettlebell work, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWj_OevZY2k]

 

As for DC the fact he is an elite level amateur wrestler turned fighter meaning he can take less damage than a less skilled MMA fighter is my point, in MMA the better these top guys get the less damage they take in the gym learning and in competition fighting just like Pro Wrestlers who are over and know all the shortcuts can do less in the ring and take less bumps and work less dates.

So for DC bumping was something that was more more of a beating then he was willing to take and for CM Punk fighting was much more damage than he usually would take in a pro wrestling match but he only had 2 real camps and didn't train at a place(Rufus Sport) that was known to spar or train particularly hard so I doubt it was in the long run any worse for him than being on the WWE schedule for the same amount of time, probably a lot less.

 

As for Chuck's chin deteriorating that happens to almost every fighter that eats a lot of shots. Guys like Wanderlei Silva, Shogun Rua, Andrei Arelovski, Overeem, Nogueria all of them became chinny and all got KO'd later on by shots that wouldn't have stopped them in their best years. Also all those guys besides Chuck Liddell all sound the same and aren't slurred or punch drunk after they all took some KO's.

 

Also Tito may not have taken a ton of KO losses but he ate shots from some of the heaviest hitters of his day like Vitor, Wanderlei, Chuck and even Ken buckled him with a strong shot in their first encounter not to mention the years of training and sparring with guys like Chuck, Ricco and others in Team Punishment. Just because the man didn't get chinny doesn't mean he hasn't absorbed a ton of shots to the head.

 

As for comparing Max Holloway and Aldo to Foley that's a but unfair as for fighters in the lighter weight classes they always end up past their prime in their early to mid 30's as they are more speed based and when they get slower they tend to start to fall off like Jens Pulver, BJ Penn, Rumina Sato etc. were all washed up by their mid 30's while guys like Chuck Liddell or Anderson Silva were still hitting their peak at the similar ages.

 

John Cena being the typical pro wrestler is a bit unfair as he was fast tracked to WWE due to his look and his limited style was not going to be a strike against him in the WWE ring style so of course he isn't going to have as many head blows but he did take a few I'm sure.

 

The reason I used Foley was because like Liddell they both went all out with reckless abandon in their work and didn't really take into consideration the consequences until the ramifications began to show in their lives and their work with Foley struggling mentally and having to retire early while Chuck started getting KO'd left and right by shots that years before he would've taken without flinching.

 

And finally with the learning how to really fight vs learning how to perform in wrestling sure you're gonna take some blows to learn how to fight no doubt but same with learning how to bump. I've seen guys in training KO themselves KICKING OUT OF PINS by smashing their head off the mat when kicking their legs. Not to mention the botched flip or flat back bumps or getting rocked learning moves and banging their heads.

 

So as much as you want to say the intent and nature of MMA makes it more dangerous than pro wrestling because the point is to hurt the other person vs protect them and perform, in execution and learning both are gonna have risks of concussions and brain damage like any contact endeavour where you aren't in control of the person across from you.

 

MMA fighters can and have competed for long careers and many fights without suffering from cognitive issues(Randy Couture, Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Dan henderson) just like many pro wrestlers have. Also some MMA fighters have had issues and had short careers and even died just like pro wrestlers have too.

 

"Training combat sports you actually take all the damage you are faking in pro wrestling" is not plainly true, it's much more nuanced than that and like I keep coming back to it comes down to more the individual than a blanket statement of either field. The persons style, skills, physical attributes/genetics and their lifestyle and health have as much to do with it as the goal and nature of the sport.

 

A fighter can catch you with something accidentally in sparring as much as a wrestler can stiff you with something in the gym and either of them can be catastrophic with the right factors coming in to play. A fighter can get rocked in round 1 and fight 3 or 5 rounds and absorb a ton of shots before reaching the final bell and a wrestler can get stunned on the first spot and bump around for 10-30 mins while rocked to finish the match without anyone realizing it.

 

At the end of the day nobody is invincible and the reality is if you are going to participate in combat or contact with another person then there are inherent risks that are always going to be present.

[supremebve]

I'm dying laughing at the list of fighters who haven't shown any cognitive issues including Ken Shamrock.

 

Otherwise, you have some good points, this has been fun.

[SPS]

I'm dying laughing at the list of fighters who haven't shown any cognitive issues including Ken Shamrock.

 

Otherwise, you have some good points, this has been fun.

 

Thank you and Ken has always been short tempered and a bit erratic with his thoughts and choice of words so really to be fair if he suffered some brain issues then it might be hard to tell but I'm a big Ken fan none the less.

[sek69]

Not absolving Vince/WWE, but the rash of guys dying was a perfect storm of the drugs wrestlers did at the time (steroids) mixing poorly with the drugs everyone else in the 80s was doing at the time (cocaine). A lot of the guys from that era who died in their 40s from heart attacks did so because they were doing blow with enlarged hearts.

[MoS]

Cain's weight training videos are genuinely cringe-worthy to watch. His trainer should never be allowed to train anybody ever again.

 

I think Jake Roberts also once said that a lot of weight-training for pro wrestling in the 1980s (with steroids involved of course) was not smart and was very hard and taxing without being smart or effective. I forget his exact words but I think he pointed to a couple of injuries he got while training and said the methods used by pro wrestlers were sub-optimal.

[Mad Dog]

I think Bix and Zellner mentioned it on Between the Sheets but I agree with them that the crazy travel schedule from early expansion era didn't help matters either.

[supremebve]

I started lifting seriously in the 8th grade for football and it was all about form and doing things the right way. I'm 36 years old and have never had a weight lifting injury, because I was taught the right way from the beginning. I knew that Velasquez video was going to be bad as soon as he lifted that kettlebell with a curved spine. Why is he doing kettlebell swings with a 203 lb. kettlebell? There is no way whatsoever you can actually control that amount of weight, he's essentially just slowly tearing his labrums over and over again. No wonder his shoulders are tied together with spit, gum, and baling wire.

[Log]

Is Velasquez supposed to be doing kettlebell swings?

[...TG]

I guess this is the right thread for it, but Colt is suing Punk over legal fees.

Quote

Cabana’s lawsuit contends Punk promised to help him out with the legal bills they amassed fighting the defamation lawsuit. Cabana claims Punk told him in a text that he would be “100% covered.”

Punk has failed to keep that promise, leaving him with unpaid legal bills totaling $513,736, according to the lawsuit.

Punk asked Cabana to pay half of the legal fees, which comes out to $256,868, saying “You are on your own.”

 

[KawadaSmile]

He can pay that with a couple of fights on Bellator!

[DMJ]

Came here to post the same news story!

I try to stick to the "judge not..." philosophy, but I'd be lying to say I wasn't curious about their friendship and when/how things got messed up. I predict that there will be fans who take sides, but I"m not sure there's a right side based on the very little we know and the "he said/he said" nature of the suit. 

[KawadaSmile]

Barring tragic deaths, Punk's story might actually be one of the saddest ones around in wrestling lately. Dude had everything and yet lost so much, much in part due to himself and his quasi-paranoid state - and as much as some people give him shit, and deservedly so, it is kind of pathetic when you look at how things went. At this point AJ is the only close person he has left, no?

[Robert S]

I don't know the US legal system but shouldn't Cabana sue Amann for the legal costs? Over here in Austria in civil law suits the losing side has to pay the costs of the winning side (which I assume should ensure that rich people cannot sue poor people and enforce settlements as the poor people cannot afford to go to court).

[Mad Dog]

Punk is a grade A piece of shit. He's the fucking reason Colt got sued. Pay his fucking bills!

[Jmare007]

 

[C.S.]

Punk-Cabana lawsuit: https://www.scribd.com/document/385790711/Doc-Aug-8-2018-at-5-17-PM#from_embed

[Migs]

13 hours ago, Robert S said:

I don't know the US legal system but shouldn't Cabana sue Amann for the legal costs? Over here in Austria in civil law suits the losing side has to pay the costs of the winning side (which I assume should ensure that rich people cannot sue poor people and enforce settlements as the poor people cannot afford to go to court).

Not a thing in the US (for the most part).

But this is based on an agreement made by Punk and Cabana, in which Punk agreed to pay the costs.

[El-P]

With friends like that, you don't need enemies. Well, who knows, really, no one is intimate with the guy or knows his life. We just extrapolate on the public stuff. Still, that really seems like a dick move (on Punk's part I mean). Then again, those obsene amounts of money for legal fees, that flies right over my head. I just don't live in the same world (and I'm glad I don't).

[Mad Dog]

I pay legal invoices at my job. They add up really quick.