JerryvonKramer Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Listening to Will and Johnny argue on the Reaction show made me think about this. Based on the last few times I've seen them, I feel pretty strongly that it's Charlotte. And if I was booking, she is also who I'd run with as the hottest heel they've had in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Charlotte easily. If you can't work a match without breaking your neck, I can't consider you a great worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I voted Charlotte, but if Charlotte was a face right now and Sasha a heel, I probably would have voted Sasha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Sasha worked so much better as a heel in NXT and she would be much more suited to turning on the main roster. Her babyface promos just aren't good at all. But with Bayley being the only other notable woman face on Raw, there isn't really room for that to happen. She also needs to learn how to work a lot safer than she does. I think buying into the WWE 'making history' narrative is pushing her to take reckless bumps in all of these matches in order to prove herself. I think they need to calm that down and encourage her to work on character development. That's something that helps Charlotte so much more. Because she's comfortable in her role and good at playing heel, she can get heat from the crowd rather than shooting for the 'this is awesome' type of reaction. That helps her overall work a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 This is easy in the sense that I think Charlotte is better and more effective in her role, and as Parv said, the first true heel they've had in years. She's not just a proper heel, she's fantastic at it. On the other hand, I haven't seen anything yet to suggest another woman on the roster can take a beating like Sasha and make Charlotte look so strong in that role. Her charisma, music, slender build and fearlessness create a dynamic in their matches that I haven't seen anyone else bring to the table yet. Becky Lynch? Perhaps, but remains to be seen. Bayley? Dead in the water since being called up so she'd really need to be rehabbed to work as well, even if I thought she'd be tremendous on the main roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I'm in the Charlotte camp. She's a great heel. Sasha actually is a bad face promo. She's a natural heel. Sasha gets big reactions , but at the end of the day Sasha isn't a face. Becky smokes her as a babyface. Charlotte has the crowd legit hating her in the way you should want your lead heel getting the heat. As things stand right now their is no way I replace Sasha with Charlotte as the Champion long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I like Sasha, but she was wildly overrated last year (some people were calling her the BITW, which has proven to be absurd), and I still think she is overrated to a degree, although people are starting to come around a bit on what she really is. She tends to be sloppy. She's also very, very driven to be a great wrestler, and as a result she is far too ambitious at times and attempts things that are way over her head. You have to know your limitations as a worker, and she struggles very badly in this area. Her shorter TV matches are never anything special, and often very very bad and disjointed (best example was the Minnesota RAW last year vs Nikki Bella, one of the worst WWE TV matches you will ever see). Sasha is a wrestler who has had incredible peaks (NXT), embarrassing valleys, and a lot of sloppy stuff in between. Also worth noting that the three great NXT matches she had were highly choreographed and practiced for weeks beforehand. Your mileage may vary on what you think of that, but it's worth noting. Charlotte has her flaws as well. She is far from graceful herself, which leads to some (unintentionally) gritty, dangerous looking matches between the two. This isn't necessarily bad, but it doesn't make you a skilled worker. Charlotte is the best heel currently in the company. She isn't "cool", she isn't likable in any way, she draws genuine heat (at least by the standards of the era), and she emotes a real asshole vibe. She can do some very athletics things, many ill advised because Sasha is 90 lbs, fragile, and a terrible base, and is seemingly never in a proper position to catch her. Again, I appreciate the ambition, but pick your spots. Charlotte is a far better promo. Sasha ranges from passable to atrocious. Charlotte is the better overall package and the best overall package on the RAW brand. We bang on VKM a lot, but he was right about this one. She should be the face of the women on RAW for a long time, she deserves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I actually think that of the IV Horsewomen, Sasha is the worst. I easily put Becky & Charlotte ahead of her & although it's close, I think Bayley edges her out a little too. I go back-and-forth between Bayley & Sasha but yeah, this is an easy vote for Charlotte for me. Since coming to the main roster, only Charlotte & Becky feel like they have thrived. A lot of it is booking of course but Bayley & Sasha don't feel anywhere near how they were perceived in NXT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Becky is definitely better than Sasha. Bayley i'd like to see in some bigger spots on the main roster, as she really hasn't had the chances the others have had, but I could definitely see the argument for placing Sasha 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I'll go Charlotte, who I thought Charlotte was a bit better in their HIAC match. It's pretty close though. Charlotte is definitely a better character heel than Sasha is a babyface, atm, on promos especially. To me, Charlotte's mannerisms and antics are what put it over the top, especially as Sasha can be reckless with herself. As a heel worker, I'm still more partial to Sasha's heel work than Charlotte's, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrzfn Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Surprised to see Charlotte is running away with this thing. I voted for her without much hesitation, but I really thought the winds were blowing the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZThomas Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 They've ran this feud into the ground now and i think Banks getting hurt ruined her chances of having the title for a decent period of time. With that being said Charlottr has been booked as a stronger champion than she probably wouldve been this side of the brand split. Charlotte has become a great heel in the past year but the down side of that is Raws womens division isnt as strong booking wise as Smackdown. The only exciting match left is Charlotte vs Bayley. Sasha would be better off heel so we can have her vs Bayley at WM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Charlotte easily. If you can't work a match without breaking your neck, I can't consider you a great worker. *blinks* *rubs eyes* Ummmmm. I don't remember eating mushrooms today. But apparently I did? The Misawa picture in your sig really ties this post together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Surprised to see Charlotte is running away with this thing. I voted for her without much hesitation, but I really thought the winds were blowing the other way. I think it's because most people think that Sasha should have retained on Sunday. I personally think so too. I'll also say that for as touch and go and iffy as WWE has presented and done Sasha's character and promos, to her credit, she's still over. She dealt with on-off TV pushes and then bad scripting, and was more resilent to it than Bayley appears to be so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Sasha. Not even close for me. I'm going to be contrarian here. Charlotte has always been pushed much, much stronger, so I don't know if that's influencing this at all. Here's things I don't like about Charlotte- like most young heels today, she really does a lot of babyface type big move. The biggest reaction in every one her matches is for her backflip or twisting backflip to the floor, heels doing cool shit is my biggest pet peeve. Bad guys are not supposed to do things that get cheers. She doesn't really draw heat on her own. The strongest heat she gets comes from one of the heaters they with her. Honestly, I'd like to see what sort of reaction she would get without Ric or Dana Brooke at ringside... my guess is people would oooh and aaah at ridiculous athleticism, but I don't know if she'd get the same, or any reaction. Sasha has gotten over on the main roster despite not having any main roster push until recently. She's always been more over than her push since she got pulled up. Plus when she worked heel in NXT she got legit heat, by herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 I went with Banks. The babyface criticisms are wildly overstated. Who cares if she can't talk well when she brings the traits needed to be a great babyface in the ring: fire, ability to garner sympathy, sell well etc. Absolutely superb heel as well. Charlotte is really good too, terrific heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Sasha. Not even close for me. I'm going to be contrarian here. Charlotte has always been pushed much, much stronger, so I don't know if that's influencing this at all. Here's things I don't like about Charlotte- like most young heels today, she really does a lot of babyface type big move. The biggest reaction in every one her matches is for her backflip or twisting backflip to the floor, heels doing cool shit is my biggest pet peeve. Bad guys are not supposed to do things that get cheers. She doesn't really draw heat on her own. The strongest heat she gets comes from one of the heaters they with her. Honestly, I'd like to see what sort of reaction she would get without Ric or Dana Brooke at ringside... my guess is people would oooh and aaah at ridiculous athleticism, but I don't know if she'd get the same, or any reaction. Sasha has gotten over on the main roster despite not having any main roster push until recently. She's always been more over than her push since she got pulled up. Plus when she worked heel in NXT she got legit heat, by herself. Charlotte has definitely been pushed stronger. She constantly gets long talking segments and has won tons of feuds and PPV matches. But she does get heat on her own. At first, I had that same criticism, though I was very impressed with how Ric Flair managed to pull off being a heel manager in 2016. But she's gotten better in the role over time. Did you see HIAC? She was hated by that crowd. She regularly gets booed on RAW, and booed way more than Kevin Owens. Bayley is floundering some, and the RAW segment last night was so-so, but Charlotte got heat in that segment too. I agree, however, about how it is a notch in Sasha's cap that she's gotten over on the main roster despite a very iffy push for most of the time. That's not the question, though, the question is who is a better worker right now. Charlotte's been in the better matches lately over the last year. Sasha is the performer with more upside, imo, but it remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpst Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 What is Charlotte's best match that doesn't involve Sasha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianB Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 What is Charlotte's best match that doesn't involve Sasha? Debatable for sure. Maybe Natalya at Takeover or Roadblock. I'd lean Roadblock I think between the two. But she put on solid marquee matches with Becky and Nikki too in the past year or so. I know some people were fans of some of those Paige matches as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noahe12 Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Them being in WWE skews the question heavily. WWE places certain people in positions to succeed and then everyone else is just kinda there. Charlotte is the one in the position to succeed right now and currently looks better because of it. Body of work and overall talent the answer is easily Sasha. But the way WWE works is only one can look like a star at a time and right now it's Charlotte even if it shouldn't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 What is Charlotte's best match that doesn't involve Sasha? Debatable for sure. Maybe Natalya at Takeover or Roadblock. I'd lean Roadblock I think between the two. But she put on solid marquee matches with Becky and Nikki too in the past year or so. I know some people were fans of some of those Paige matches as well. I really liked those Paige matches a lot, but some people hated them. Very divisive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 I voted Charlotte, but if Charlotte was a face right now and Sasha a heel, I probably would have voted Sasha. Agreed. I will say that even though Sasha is not suited to be a babyface outside of her ring work, she's started to became a really good babyface in ring. Charlotte doesn't have that natural ability to play baby in the structure of WWE babyface being beat down for most of the match but Sasha does. Most of it is due to Charlotte being bigger than most of the women and she's not a Barry Windham type that can work small for smaller opponents but her as a face character never worked. Joe mentioned that he enjoyed the Paige/Charlotte matches but they had to resort to bringing up Reid to get heat on Paige. With Charlotte/Sasha, you don't have to result to any of that. They made the right decision to give her the title again cause she's doing a great job as lead heel right now. She does have to have a great match with another person other than Sasha cause I watched the Nattie match from Takeover and its not as good as we remembered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Isn't this a redundant question, as the matches' are being laid out by the agents in the back. Its been reported that the reason the woman matches in NXT were so good, is because they had time to practice them. It would be interesting to be in the room when the matches are being put together and see how much impact the girls have in laying them out. The question should be, who portrays a wrestler better, this is aimed at most of the roster. It's not a dig at the woman, but on how the WWE micromanages everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codysseus Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Sasha pretty easily for me. Charlotte's a good heel and has great facial expressions, but she's pretty green in the ring still, especially when she's in there with people who aren't Sasha. She's consistently a little out of place, her timing's a little off. Even her matches with Becky, who's probably the best in the ring in the company, fall short. Her face run was god awful, too. Sasha's a very good heel and getting there as a face. She seems to know when to slow things down and when to speed them up. Her sense of urgency, (edit:) bumping, and selling had just as much to do with the HIAC match being great as Charlotte's heel work, in my opinion. She's had better matches with other wrestlers.... Yeah. Sasha. Isn't this a redundant question, as the matches' are being laid out by the agents in the back. Its been reported that the reason the woman matches in NXT were so good, is because they had time to practice them. It would be interesting to be in the room when the matches are being put together and see how much impact the girls have in laying them out. The question should be, who portrays a wrestler better, this is aimed at most of the roster. It's not a dig at the woman, but on how the WWE micromanages everything. I look at what's presented to me and try not to worry too much about reports of how matches are set up or who that applies to, personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpst Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Isn't this a redundant question, as the matches' are being laid out by the agents in the back. Its been reported that the reason the woman matches in NXT were so good, is because they had time to practice them. It would be interesting to be in the room when the matches are being put together and see how much impact the girls have in laying them out. If I remember correctly, this became a big discussion point when Meltzer mentioned it around the time that they all got called up to the main roster and started having bad matches. Even if they were actively practicing matches that were laid out by agents, they were still having the best matches on a roster of people who had the same privilege. And when they went up to the main roster, the remaining women in NXT had worse matches, even though they had the same agents and the same time to practice matches. Asuka, who most people would consider a "better worker" than both Sasha and Charlotte, hasn't had NXT matches of comparable quality. You can argue that's because Asuka's booking doesn't let her have truly great matches, but at some point you have to set aside circumstance and judge the actual output. Obviously people have different preferences when it comes to peak output vs. consistency, and especially on a board driven by watching lots of footage there is a desire to find workers that have an underrated consistent output over a long period of time on TV matches, house shows, etc. I do think it should affect how you book people. If you have workers that are great at weekly TV matches, you should use them for that. If you have workers that are great at delivering 6 big matches every year, you should build longterm feuds and angles towards those big matches. The question should be, who portrays a wrestler better, this is aimed at most of the roster. It's not a dig at the woman, but on how the WWE micromanages everything. The point seems to come up more with the women than with the men, and there are way more male wrestlers on the roster. Nobody's talking about who puts together the Revival matches, and there aren't comments about Arn Anderson's match layouts in weekly WWE TV discussions. I don't think we have enough information about these inner workings across-the-board to judge them for a particular pair of wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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