Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only

When "Over"Booking is Just Good Booking


Superstar Sleeze

Recommended Posts

So I watched a bunch of Asuka matches on a flight this morning, but I wanted to write some reviews. But I didn't take notes so I used 411mania reviews to jog my memory.

 

I got to the reviews of Asuka vs Emma Takeover match which I loved especially the finish stretch. I thought the ref bump, belt being thrown in and Dana distraction added a ton of drama down the stretch. Really elevated Asuka and was wicked enjoyable. But yet two reviews on the site cited that "the match didn't need the gaga" and that overbooked finish hurt the match. Um if Asuka just submitted her instead of Emma backing her into the ref, how the hell would that have been better. It would have been a ho-hum finish to a solid match. This was way more entertaining and added a lot of fun.

 

Why is still there a stigma to overbooking? It is what makes wrestling fun! Ref bumps, interference and general wackiness. Why do people want wrestling to be like real sports???

 

Just reasons #1269 why internet wrestling fans sucks in my estimation.

 

Long live overbooking because it can just be good booking!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just reasons #1269 why internet wrestling fans sucks in my estimation.

 

Says a guy who does shitloads of review on an über-elitist pro-wrestling board (a *board*, in 2017...), well, in 2017, when *everyone* is an "internet fan". Not to be a dick, but really, do we need to have this kind of attitude ? It's like "indy darling lol" and "WWE fans booing the wrong stuff are stoopid", this really should go away...

 

Overbooking sucks 99% of the time because it's just that, overbooking of stuff that would work much better if they were simpler. A simple run-in or ref-bump is not overbooking BTW, it takes more than the usual stuff to be called real overbooking.

 

But when it's well thought out or done in a really fun way, like most of Raven's dog & pony show, it can be as fun as anything (I'm a Raven fan). The greatest instance of great overbooking that works is the infamous Steve Austin vs Dude Love second PPV match in 1998. Just ridiculous but masterfully worked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But when it's well thought out or done in a really fun way, like most of Raven's dog & pony show, it can be as fun as anything (I'm a Raven fan). The greatest instance of great overbooking that works is the infamous Steve Austin vs Dude Love second PPV match in 1998. Just ridiculous but masterfully worked.

I came here to talk about Austin vs. Dude Love. In my opinion overbooking is harder than hell to do right, but if you get it right you can get something special. I love Austin vs. Love, because of all of the bullshit that comes with it. It may be Austin's greatest performance as a wrestler. He plays the tough guy ass kicker as usual, but there is also so much small subtle stuff that shows frustration and vulnerability that makes this match great. I honestly don't know if there is another wrestler who could have pulled that performance off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well in fairness you are being a dick to me just as I am being a dick to the 411mania guys. I am a pretty easygoing guy so you don't have to sugarcoat things. I do think you have a point that this mentality can be just as annoying as the people I was frustrated with, but I was just that... I was frustrated with them. I wrote that post in haste and in anger, but the core point of the post is still valid. There was a big backlash in the late 90s/early 00s to overbooking which at the time made sense, but internet criticism just like WWE seems stuck in 2002-2003. People are parroting the same Scott Keith-isms from the early 00s without really thinking.

 

Your point about a simple run-in or ref bump NOT being overbooking is exactly my point. There have been legions of internet fans trained by the wrestling criticism of the late 90s/early 00s to believe anything but an uber-clean finish Is overbooking and decry its existence.

 

I agree with you I think overbooking can be fantastic and really add to pro wrestling.

 

I can tell we agree, but the tone of my original post was hostile and prickly. That was dumb on my part.

 

Lets all rejoice in the wonders of overbooking because it is one of the many reasons that makes wrestling fun! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your point about a simple run-in or ref bump NOT being overbooking is exactly my point. There have been legions of internet fans trained by the wrestling criticism of the late 90s/early 00s to believe anything but an uber-clean finish Is overbooking and decry its existence.

 

I agree with you I think overbooking can be fantastic and really add to pro wrestling.

 

I can tell we agree, but the tone of my original post was hostile and prickly. That was dumb on my part.

 

Lets all rejoice in the wonders of overbooking because it is one of the many reasons that makes wrestling fun! :D

 

It was the "internet fan" that kinda irked me, because what are we all around here ? ;)

 

Yeah, in essence, we agree. I have loved shoot-style (still do, but don't watch much these days for obvious reasons) and I'm a Raven fan (and right now, a big LU fan). Can't think of two more opposites of the spectrum. There's so much different things that can work. There's basically nothing *wrong* when any particular thing is done right. Hell, I even enjoyed some of those Double J specials watching TNA, because I actually got a kick at how ridiculous the overbooking would get and how many guitars Jarrett would waste before finally hitting the fatality shot. I found its own absurd logic and in turn, it became fun to watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i agree overbooking can be a treat when done correctly. You mentioned the Raven dog and pony show which as another Raven fan I enjoyed as it made sense for his character, one of my favorite overbookings was when Steve Corino and Tommy Dreamer used to do a similar build from their basic singles match on the house shows with Corino's army getting involved then Sandman with full music entrance getting involved, then once he got beat down New Jack with full entrance getting involved with a can full of weapons then to top it off Dusty Rhodes coming down to clear house.

 

It was an almost hour long spectacle of spots and characters all entertaining and exciting to see what would happen next. Now ECW used this a little too much in my opinion but when done right they did it well.

 

Also Raven vs Goldberg from Nitro for the US title was another great overbooking, pretty much anytime Raven and his Flock would get bounced by the face it was exciting and not groan inducing to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also Raven vs Goldberg from Nitro for the US title was another great overbooking, pretty much anytime Raven and his Flock would get bounced by the face it was exciting and not groan inducing to see.

 

Yeah, loved the Flock. One of the best, which I always use as an instance of workers working a match in front of a crowd that couldn't give less of a fuck and by the end had the same crowd molten, is Raven vs Saturn from (I believe) WWIII 98, for the freedom of the Flock. Terrific match and amazing dog & pony show, with the classic spot of Kidman dropkicking Raven which made him an immediate babyface cruiserweight star.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I watched a bunch of Asuka matches on a flight this morning, but I wanted to write some reviews. But I didn't take notes so I used 411mania reviews to jog my memory.

 

I got to the reviews of Asuka vs Emma Takeover match which I loved especially the finish stretch. I thought the ref bump, belt being thrown in and Dana distraction added a ton of drama down the stretch. Really elevated Asuka and was wicked enjoyable. But yet two reviews on the site cited that "the match didn't need the gaga" and that overbooked finish hurt the match. Um if Asuka just submitted her instead of Emma backing her into the ref, how the hell would that have been better. It would have been a ho-hum finish to a solid match. This was way more entertaining and added a lot of fun.

 

Agreed. Asuka/Emma is one of my all time favorite NXT matches and maybe my favorite Asuka in NXT match. Well-built feud with those mentioned spots adding amazing drama when Asuka's streak was still early and Emma was at her heel best so it was totally believable that the Emma/Dana duo could have pulled off cheating to win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the perception is that gimmicks and run-ins and all the rest are something delegated to lesser workers who can't have an engaging match without lots of shortcuts, which those things are considered to be. Think cheap heat, kinda like heels insulting the local city or their sports team. So I think that's where the dislike comes from. Run-ins, ref bumps, etc. are not inherently bad, but I think bad performers need them more than good performers as a rule. I agree that matches don't need clean finishes all the time, especially on TV. In fact, we get too many of them, and the end result is guys getting beat way more often than they should and too many guys not being as strong as they should be. If matches in a series have inconclusive finishes, but lead to a final match that has one, that's kinda what wrestling is and is a-ok with me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think "over booking" gets a bad rap because too often it's done by bookers trying to be smarter than the room and/or reinvent the wheel. There's a difference between booking a match with a bunch of run ins/cheating/plunder that can be fun and entertaining, and there's booking a match because someone just wants to do a bunch of wacky bullshit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've come to be a fan of what is commonly termed "overbooking" in recent months especially when done right. In introducing my girlfriend to wrestling, she's had just as much fun watching if not more fun watching a well done chaotic finish than something straightforward.

 

Austin-Love has been mentioned as a masterpiece of overbooking. I'd throw in some other WWE matches that followed the same template in HHH-Rock and Bryan-Orton-Batista. The "stack the odds against the hot babyface" formula has worked and continues to work extremely well under the WWE formula.

 

Then there's other examples like Rush vs. LA Park from just this year. I saw some people knock off some points from it for its (admittedly) ridiculous finish. But the finish was so insane and absurd in such an entertaining way, that I actually found myself entirely endeared to it and loving it on some ironic (and eventually unironic) level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes I get irked when WWE will do a DQ finish in the second match of a PPV , to extend a program another month, while the main matches on the show have decisive finishes, but Meltzer kills them for it. To me that's allowed, you can do the occasional BS finish to get another PPV out of a program as long as you're not like late 80s JCP and screwing the fans all over the place. That's American wrestling.

 

Otherwise, I love Memphis, ECW, Dundee Mid-South, yeah I don't like the idea that 90s AJPW is the only booking style allowed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the WM30 main event is cherished by some for its outcome...but man did I hate Daniel Bryan getting taken out on a stretcher only to come back. Don't get me wrong, I wanted Bryan to win with all of my heart, but to me, you had him beat Triple H in the opener but suffer enough damage to have to wrestle in the main event with a damaged, bandaged arm/shoulder (that he sells expertly, BTW), then during the match, he eats a ton more direct damage to the shoulder/arm, then Triple H shows up and the odds are stacked against him even more - but if that wasn't enough, he ends up getting Powerbomb-RKO'ed through a table and taken out on a stretcher.

 

Only to return and, after even more false finishes, win the match.

 

Again, I wanted Bryan to win and I'm the farthest from a purist in terms of finishes - but I just remember watching this with my friends and thinking they were laying it on too damn thick. It was counterproductive to me because it ended up telegraphing Bryan's already fairly secured victory even more by making it literally beyond ridiculous. It was like, "We dare you to suspend your disbelief!" when you could've just had them deliver a good match (which, if you just watch the first third/half, it was) and basically keep the same finishing stretch just take out the stretcher sequence and the Triple H & Steph run-in. Those elements really took away the "timeless" aspect of it.

 

I'd be curious to read other people's thoughts on the WM30 main event - overbooked to the point of greatness or to the point of terribleness or not overbooked at all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, there was a sense in the 90s that AJPW was superior because it had clean finishes. You can see that in the sheets. On the other hand, JCP was destroyed in part by years of unsatisfying Dusty Finishes.

 

I think we're all a bit more nuanced than that though. It's about execution and moderation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the WM30 main event is cherished by some for its outcome...but man did I hate Daniel Bryan getting taken out on a stretcher only to come back

 

The whole "get stretchered out then come back" shit is a WWE Shitty Overbooking Shortcut 101. Hate it since that famous NAO angle which was so dramatic, only to get killed off at the very end of the show by Foley & Funk coming back after they were supposedly destroyed.

 

So, there was a sense in the 90s that AJPW was superior because it had clean finishes. You can see that in the sheets. On the other hand, JCP was destroyed in part by years of unsatisfying Dusty Finishes.

 

It's really off-topic here since we're talking about overbooking crazy shit with a hundred run-ins and a dozen ref bumps. That being said, JCP shit finishes were annoying as hell and really ripped-off fans. So many Flair matches really felt like having cheap-ass finishes, including on the biggest shows. I'm going through a Horsemen comp, and I don't enjoy any of those shit finishes. Not because they're not "clean", but because they're systematic and thus predictably boring. Dusty's overrated. But that's another thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I said the same thing about "overbooking" on twitter recently after the Arik Royal vs Trevor Lee match in CWF Mid-Atlantic. If done right the ref bumps/interference can lead to a much more dramatic ending than just doing endless 2.9 finisher kickouts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Also Raven vs Goldberg from Nitro for the US title was another great overbooking, pretty much anytime Raven and his Flock would get bounced by the face it was exciting and not groan inducing to see.

Yeah, loved the Flock. One of the best, which I always use as an instance of workers working a match in front of a crowd that couldn't give less of a fuck and by the end had the same crowd molten, is Raven vs Saturn from (I believe) WWIII 98, for the freedom of the Flock. Terrific match and amazing dog & pony show, with the classic spot of Kidman dropkicking Raven which made him an immediate babyface cruiserweight star.

Love that storyline and that match. Good stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd be curious to read other people's thoughts on the WM30 main event - overbooked to the point of greatness or to the point of terribleness or not overbooked at all?

 

I think the overbooking here worked in context. They'd backed out of making Bryan WWE Champion several times already and loads of people still weren't convinced they were actually going to go through with it, so all the over the top stuff to injure him felt like maybe they were giving him a super-protected loss to justify not putting the title on him again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think overbooking can be great if it tells a good story and has a logical and satisfying conclusion. Two matches in particular stand out to me.

 

Bayley vs. Eva Marie: The story leading up into this match was that despite Eva Marie sucking, she was the "ideal" women's wrestler to "management" (Vince). Therefore, "management" decided to give her every advantage: crooked referee Charles Robinson, Nia Jax in her corner, etc. Bayley naturally outclassed Eva in-ring but ref bumps, distractions, etc blocked her path. The match was full of shenanigans but told a simple yet effective story of the babyface overcoming the odds and winning.

 

Jushin Liger vs. Taichi: Liger, in his final Best of the Super Juniors, went winless in his first seven matches and faced the heartbreaking prospect of finishing with zero points. Taichi on the other hand, used every dirty trick in the book to earn eight points and have a shot at the finals. Taichi and all of Suzuki-Gun jump Liger as the match starts and cheat relentlessly to deny the legend his last chance at a win. Things look hopeless for Liger after a ref bump as Suzuki-Gun cut up his gear and mask while continuing their beatdown. Taguchi and KUSHIDA finally run in and chase Suzuki-Gun off, allowing Liger to defeat Taichi in a fair fight. Simple, yet effective story of the good guys evening the odds so the aged legend can get one last victory over the tournament's biggest villain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...