Bix Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 On and off, I spent the last few months going over newspaper clippings, old newsletters, & archived web pages as well as sending emails, making calls, and filing public record requests to try to determine the actual attendance in the Pontiac Silverdome at WrestleMania III. My latest article at Deadspin is the result of that research: https://deadspin.com/how-many-people-were-actually-at-wrestlemania-iii-a-de-1824178481 Loss said I could use this as a conversation starter, so let's do that: In light of the newspaper reports, Steve Harms' comments, weird Observer discrepancies/coincidences, and everything else, what does everyone think the number was? 93,173? 78,500? 88,000? Nothing resembling any of the above? Tamalie from Wrestling Classics attempted a head count of the floor seats in the high resolution photo and came up with roughly 6,300, so almost 87,000 fans if the official Silverdome football capacity was a shoot or a football capacity in the ~72,000 range if it was a work. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Russian Daydream Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 It doesn't matter. You can tell from the pictures that there was a lot of people there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 The WM III crowd has always been a fascinating case study in how people will believe what they are told over and over, despite there being actual factual proof of the correct information. I mean, clearly the 93 number is bullshit. 78 is probably the paid attendance. With comps, there were probably 80-84 in the building. That seems to be right about where most people estimate it as well. Yet people will still defend the inflated number with a religious fervor. All just because the WWF has to set the fake attendance records for all the venues it goes to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Well, no, the point is that Meltzer and others insist that 78K is the actual attendance, not just paid attendance. Which doesn't pass the eye test unless someone can provide some compelling evidence that the Silverdome's 80,311-seat capacity is a work. To my knowledge, the WWF never, ever claimed that 93K was paid attendance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin' Brian Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 BTW, who delivers the fake number at Mania this year ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye12 Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 In addition to the regular stadium seats at 80K there are 24 sections that appear to be about 15x25 people each on the floor not counting the ringside "triangles" for lack of an exact shape. That's 375 per section times 24, so 9000 people. The four ringside sections look like at least 750 people each, so another 3K. 80 plus 9 plus 3 is 92K so it's going to take a lot of convincing to me that it wasn't really close to 93K people in that place unless the Lions worked their maximum attendance and take away from the starting number. There is no chance there is only 78K unless a quarter of the stadium bowl is empty or tarped off somewhere. Super Bowl XVI there listed an attendance of 81,270 for reference in 1982, which given my estimate of 12K on the floor, is 93,270 (97 people above what WWF claimed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/There are numerous Newspapers.com clippings linked in my article that you don't need a membership to read, FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin' Brian Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/There are numerous Newspapers.com clippings linked in my article that you don't need a membership to read, FWIW. I was clicking on the links and reading as I was typing lol but I was also trying to find anywhere else that might have numbers. Too bad no one has a seating chart from back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/ Do we know for sure that the Pope wouldnt work his numbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 BTW it is highly possible, even likely, that the Silverdome was "working" it's football capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 this was so papered that as 72,000 drawing card only drew 1.5 million usd adjust for inflation around 4.5 Mlioon this did not i compre this the inoki retirement show that drew 8.5 mliioon gate at the time and around 12.25 adjusted for inflation if ot ud draw 92,000 that gate is even more of an embasstsament since that means as show that drew almost 30 k less fans drew 3x the gate lol the inoki show is officially the 5th biggest gate in the History of wrestling only topped by four mainas III not included Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin' Brian Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/Do we know for sure that the Pope wouldnt work his numbers? I feel like no one knows anything for sure anymore. I guess I don't see a reason because as far as I know he's not in competition with anyone, but I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 this was so papered that as 72,000 drawing card only drew 1.5 million usd adjust for inflation around 4.5 Mlioon this did not i compre this the inoki retirement show that drew 8.5 mliioon gate at the time and around 12.25 adjusted for inflation if ot ud draw 92,000 that gate is even more of an embasstsament since that means as show that drew almost 30 k less fans drew 3x the gate lol the inoki show is officially the 5th biggest gate in the History of wrestling only topped by four mainas III not included Yep, Mania 3 was a total flop. Why do we even care 30 years later. Close the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 BTW it is highly possible, even likely, that the Silverdome was "working" it's football capacity. I don't find that particularly likely. Especially since the number of football tickets available had to be known for blackout purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 this was so papered that as 72,000 drawing card only drew 1.5 million usd adjust for inflation around 4.5 Mlioon this did not i compre this the inoki retirement show that drew 8.5 mliioon gate at the time and around 12.25 adjusted for inflation if ot ud draw 92,000 that gate is even more of an embasstsament since that means as show that drew almost 30 k less fans drew 3x the gate lol the inoki show is officially the 5th biggest gate in the History of wrestling only topped by four mainas III not included Yep, Mania 3 was a total flop. Why do we even care 30 years later. Close the thread wow way to jump to the wrong concsion of what i said i cav call you a troll for this comment the way the wwe hype it up as the biggest of all time when his not even there own the biggest show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 It's more than just cold numbers that make it the biggest show of all time. Hogan vs Andre is mythical and so is Savage vs Steamer to a lesser extent. It's more legend than wrestling show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shodate Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 It's more than just cold numbers that make it the biggest show of all time. Hogan vs Andre is mythical and so is Savage vs Steamer to a lesser extent. It's more legend than wrestling show this topic is about cold numbers im not usassly about cold numbers myself but this topic is about cold numbers so quote Cold numbers that i know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpetCrawler Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/ Do we know for sure that the Pope wouldnt work his numbers? I think Dave has said that he heard the PR people involved with the Pope's appearance worked his numbers solely so they could say they beat the Wrestlemania III number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Dave has also said the opposite--that the WWF came up with a number to "beat the Pope," which would be a hell of a feat considering the Pope's visit was September of '87. Granted, Basil DeVito said the same thing in the WM coffee table book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Supposedly on September 18, 1987 for Mass with Pope John Paul II the attendance was over 90,000 as well not long after Wrestlemania 3 according to this Detroit Free Press article too. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/29/pontiac-silverdome-memories/74835284/ I don't see any reason for those numbers to have been inflated, so it looks like it's surely possible for that many people to be in the Silverdome. If the number is inflated, I don't think it's inflated much. Maybe to get it over the 90,000 mark if it was close, say if it was in the 89,000 range. They might not have all been 'paid', but they were still there. Still doing some research, not sure if I want to give this place my card info to sign up for a free trial, but the parts of this article you can read show the attendance for the Pope was less than expected. https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/99914238/Do we know for sure that the Pope wouldnt work his numbers? I think Dave has said that he heard the PR people involved with the Pope's appearance worked his numbers solely so they could say they beat the Wrestlemania III number.In addition to what Pete said, I've never seen anything suggesting that the Vatican ever put out a number. Hell, there was never an official number until the Silverdome pulled one (seemingly) out of thin air 15 years later. It's entirely possible that that's were more people at the mass, but the photos make it look like that had a bigger stage. Regardless, it's very obvious, both from photos and the Secret Service scouting WM3 to prepare the Pope's security plan, that both events were set up for similar capacities. The claim in the past that 88k for the Pope was the "real" counterpart to 78k for WM3 doesn't appear to have any basis in reality. Just like the report that the Silverdome website had some variation of the "real" numbers for "years" when it was, at best, 4 weeks (but more likely never happened). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucky Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Fascinating how everyone's instinct, both here and on Twitter, is to just write their own opinions on the number, citing almost no sources. No one mentioned the simple fact that this is a fantastically researched article, as usual Bix. I really enjoyed exploring the external links you provided. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin' Brian Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Fascinating how everyone's instinct, both here and on Twitter, is to just write their own opinions on the number, citing almost no sources. No one mentioned the simple fact that this is a fantastically researched article, as usual Bix. I really enjoyed exploring the external links you provided. Good stuff. I second this. Bix posted it here to kickstart opinion and debate, but by itself it's a good article on it's own. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 It doesn't matter. You can tell from the pictures that there was a lot of people there. I do agree. It was a big crowd regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 I agree with that too but I also get why the need to investigate it if there's some loose threads about. And it doesn't matter if one day they draw 200,000 people to a show, it won't be as historic as it was that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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