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Hart/Austin WM 13 vs. Atlantis/Villano III - Better Match?

Steve Austin Bret Hart Wrestlemania Atlantis Villano III

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#1 Jetlag

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:31 PM

Shamelessly stealing this topic from Elliott @ GWE Forums because this forum has more activity and I thought this would be really interesting to discuss:

 

 

Taking a page from Cap's book, I wanted to put this forward for discussion. Two of the most universally beloved matches ever. Both are WON MOTY winners and I suspect are matches many will consider for #1 overall.

What are other people's thoughts on these matches?
Where will they rank?
Which will rank higher?
What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of each?

 



#2 Jetlag

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:32 PM

Both matches are insanely overrated, however Austin/Hart may be the better match, while Villano/Atlantis is the more epic moment. FWIW Villano III's performance smokes anything the WWF match had. I'm not sure either will make my Top 100 since I'm still hemming and hawing about what my actual criteria will be. Maybe V3/Atlantis because fucking hell that ending.

Watching Austin/Hart with Austin's commentary is quite the experience. Austin was right that he could have, should have done a better job drawing in the audience. On the other hand his idea for changing the finish was rubbish. They already crammed too much into what should've been a much simpler match. He could've done a far better job selling the leg. Austin looked worldclass selling the finish. Bret Hart is always such a workman without any frills it's nearly impossible to comment on him.

V3/Atlantis may have set the blueprint for every shitty modern apuestas match. They fumble around in the opening with Atlantis probably having the blood rush into his head cause the rudo fans all got on his case. Then there's that fucking spot of the decade contender and they go on and do 2,99999s and near submissions back and forth for 20 minutes. Not going to play that card but how would modern workers not get grilled over doing something like that?? Still, match had that awesome intensity throughout. V3's punch combos and resistance carried the match. He also saved the opening by firing up and ripping Atlantis open when the referee admonished him. I'm not sure the blood and finish was better than Hart/Austin. V3 could probably carry Ultimo Guerrero to a really good apuestas match.



#3 NintendoLogic

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 03:07 PM

This is no contest for me. The WM13 match isn't my favorite match of all time (it's not even my favorite Hart/Austin match), but it is the most influential for me in terms of developing my tastes of what I look for in a match. It's the reason I view brawling combined with submissions as basically the ideal wrestling style. Meanwhile, I actively hated Atlantis/V3 the last time I watched it. The never-ending stretch of your-turn/my-turn nearfalls and near-submissions completely killed the match for me. It was like a PWG Cena match times ten.



#4 Boss Rock

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 03:21 PM

Wrestlemania 13. Atlantis-Villano is great but I feel like it doesn't really get going until the blood starts flowing. Hart-Austin is pretty consistently great and urgent throughout.



#5 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 12:18 AM

Villano III vs. Atlantis is a masterpiece. I do think the lead-in to the match is generally overrated but the match itself is a classic. 



#6 shodate

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 01:14 AM

Villano III vs. Atlantis 

 

iv made  my view on hart vs austin well know   and hate for it by most  



#7 peachchaos

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 07:03 PM

yeah we get it you misunderstand the entire purpose of the match

 

WM13 is a classic on every level



#8 shodate

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 07:36 PM

yeah we get it you misunderstand the entire purpose of the match

 

WM13 is a classic on every level

as much as love pro wrestling,  wrestling has no deeper meaning  its not like prog rock album  like people paint it that is why i feel comfortable judging wrestling in Bubble   there is nothing ot misunderstand there 

 

The Luchas match was waht it was marketed as the submission match was not  



#9 Grimmas

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 07:42 PM

   and hate for it by most  

why do you keep adding lines like that? You constantly try to make yourself out as a martyr or something for your brave ideas, it's really bizarre. If people hate something you say, so be it, why keep bringing it up?

 

On topic, as great as Austin-Bret is (even if the name of the match does not denote how the match is worked, but who really gives a shit?) V3-Atlantis may be the greatest match in history. The emotion may never be topped.

 

Also, Bret-Austin from Survivor Series is better than WrestleMania anyway.



#10 peachchaos

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 08:52 PM

My ultimate defense of the "Submission Match" stip is that WWF had never marketed or presented a "Submission Match" in resent history. So if you came in with your own expectations, that's exactly what they were. Hart had the sharpshooter, Austin had the Million Dollar Dream and "submission expert" Ken Shamrock was the special guest ref. Those are the perimeters of the match, but working the match as anything other than a complete brawl would have been a detriment to the entire feud. Austin became a made man and Hart was reborn as the lead heel. It's the single greatest finish in wrestling history.

 

Survivor Series is slightly better maybe from a purist standpoint, but they're way different beasts anyhow. Surivor Series merely sets the stage for the feud. I would certainly argue that no one should watch one without watching the other. 

 

If you don't watch wrestling in terms of feuds and how they build, you are absolutely doing it wrong anyway. The entire Austin-Hart saga is some of my favorite filmmaking, period.



#11 shodate

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 09:22 PM

My ultimate defense of the "Submission Match" stip is that WWF had never marketed or presented a "Submission Match" in resent history. So if you came in with your own expectations, that's exactly what they were. Hart had the sharpshooter, Austin had the Million Dollar Dream and "submission expert" Ken Shamrock was the special guest ref. Those are the perimeters of the match, but working the match as anything other than a complete brawl would have been a detriment to the entire feud. Austin became a made man and Hart was reborn as the lead heel. It's the single greatest finish in wrestling history.

 

Survivor Series is slightly better maybe from a purist standpoint, but they're way different beasts anyhow. Surivor Series merely sets the stage for the feud. I would certainly argue that no one should watch one without watching the other. 

 

If you don't watch wrestling in terms of feuds and how they build, you are absolutely doing it wrong anyway. The entire Austin-Hart saga is some of my favorite filmmaking, period.

i watch it on a match on a Match  by  match basis   

 

im sorry i cannot overlook  the idea of  a submsiion match  that lacked any real mat work  that i expected of a submission match your defense is nota valid view imo 



#12 peachchaos

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 10:06 PM

Saying that any match has to constrict itself to some narrow-minded view of a completely worked stipulation because that's how you would like the stipulation to be worked is totally ignoring the characters and context. That's just not how wrestling should be viewed because it's not how it is created or presented, especially in America but it is certainly like this in Japan as well. All those AJPW classics would be almost inconsequential if they weren't part of a larger story.

 

You're doing this all wrong, especially when it comes to a master like Bret Hart, whose entire career was to build nuance on top of his previous masterpiece. The submission stipulation here is so much more important than any mat work could ever be. Bret beat Austin by pinfall by countering Austin's submission finisher and Hart himself was known for the sharpshooter. Austin antagonized Hart for months and the two had a heated feud. They had no interest in seeing who the better mat wrestler was, that time had passed. The submission stip allowed for a situation where there were no disqualifications with a special referee a legit submission specialist. Austin couldn't lose by pinfall this time and there would be no excuses in Hart's mind and Shamrock wouldn't stop it until there was a winner. Austin, totally in character, didn't care and just wanted to beat Hart into submission. They had a helluva fight, which is exactly what needed to happen, and go home with the greatest finish in the history of the business.

 

WWE presents itself as a weekly episodic TV series and viewing it in any other context is just completely irrelevant. You're missing out. You're cherry-picking episodes of prestige TV when you should be binging the entire season.

 

There are a million Volk Han matches I love that almost no one will ever care about because there is nothing there beyond the work. And they're all amazing in the way a lot of world art house cinema is in terms of technique and delivery. But Austin-Hart is Pulp Fiction and it absolutely changed the game on every level. It's like calling Pulp Fiction a bad movie since it's not really a noir crime drama as much as it is a dark comedy. Who cares?



#13 shodate

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 10:50 PM

Saying that any match has to constrict itself to some narrow-minded view of a completely worked stipulation because that's how you would like the stipulation to be worked is totally ignoring the characters and context. That's just not how wrestling should be viewed because it's not how it is created or presented, especially in America but it is certainly like this in Japan as well. All those AJPW classics would be almost inconsequential if they weren't part of a larger story.

 

You're doing this all wrong, especially when it comes to a master like Bret Hart, whose entire career was to build nuance on top of his previous masterpiece. The submission stipulation here is so much more important than any mat work could ever be. Bret beat Austin by pinfall by countering Austin's submission finisher and Hart himself was known for the sharpshooter. Austin antagonized Hart for months and the two had a heated feud. They had no interest in seeing who the better mat wrestler was, that time had passed. The submission stip allowed for a situation where there were no disqualifications with a special referee a legit submission specialist. Austin couldn't lose by pinfall this time and there would be no excuses in Hart's mind and Shamrock wouldn't stop it until there was a winner. Austin, totally in character, didn't care and just wanted to beat Hart into submission. They had a helluva fight, which is exactly what needed to happen, and go home with the greatest finish in the history of the business.

 

WWE presents itself as a weekly episodic TV series and viewing it in any other context is just completely irrelevant. You're missing out. You're cherry-picking episodes of prestige TV when you should be binging the entire season.

 

There are a million Volk Han matches I love that almost no one will ever care about because there is nothing there beyond the work. And they're all amazing in the way a lot of world art house cinema is in terms of technique and delivery. But Austin-Hart is Pulp Fiction and it absolutely changed the game on every level. It's like calling Pulp Fiction a bad movie since it's not really a noir crime drama as much as it is a dark comedy. Who cares?

all of them all Japan matches were also tv matches so the you can say the us matches tv matches were never good in comparison 

 

i also  never understood the term  good or great  tv match when   alot the  Japanese matches were tv maches  but there  better in match to match presentation than any  wwe  my match of say the ae  the golden era   of wwe 

 

i have the measuring stick match that i compare all matches too   

 

that is the only pre conceived notion i have  of any  match dies to compare  to my measuring stick  match in  is own  match type  nothing more nothng less   and for  Luchas  matches   there  are two i use  fir y sticks to measure to   the  Ms1  match  and  the match talked about  this topic

 

what you saying is  to  me to judge this SUBMISSION match  i have just shut of my Brain not analyze it for it faults    



#14 peachchaos

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:06 PM

I would say you'd have some ground to stand on if the stipulation didn't directly factor into the finish. But it did, so you don't.



#15 Microstatistics

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 02:06 AM

I'll go with Bret vs. Austin, though it's close. The intricate storytelling and character work connect with me more than the pure emotion of Atlantis-V3. Both should make my Top 50 for GME. 

 







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