And the WO Wrestler of the Year is.....

[Guest HTQ]

Mistico.

[Tim Evans]

That's a little shocking. I thought it would be Danielson or maybe KENTA. I can't stand Mistico but he's had a hell of a year.

[jdw]

Pro wrestling hangs tough for another year. I would expect that next year is when someone from UFC will break through.

 

 

John

[sek69]

Pro wrestling hangs tough for another year. I would expect that next year is when someone from UFC will break through.

 

 

John

 

 

Why would someone from UFC win Wrestler of the Year?

 

Also, on a related note, Dave really needs to separate wrestling and MMA a little more clearly. I'm certain the WON is the driving force behind people who seem to think MMA is going to destroy wrestling.

[jdw]

Why would someone from UFC win Wrestler of the Year?

Because Dave considers MMA fighters as candidates for the Flair-Thesz was, which is the Wrestler of the Year award. He's advocated them in the past, and argued strongly for their positives in a recent issue looking at all the candidates.

 

Mistico isn't likely to duplicate his 2006 season. Who knows what's up for the WWE. ROH and TNA, because they're small indies, will always have issues getting votes from a broad base of WON readers. There's a big question whether Morishima is going to take off to the degree that would get him the award in 2007.

 

Which leaves MMA likely building on it's 2006 year. It's possible that the bloom will come off. But the "mainstream" buzz on MMA *hasn't* peaked yet. It has a chance at more upswing at least initially in 2007 before hitting whatever is its peak.

 

I also suspect that a growing number of "Pro Wrestling Is Pro Wrestling While MMA Is MMA" old farts who can't keep up with the times are either not voting (as I haven't in years) or letting their subs lapse (which from time-to-time I have over the past five or so years).

 

Unless pro wrestling produces someone who stands a bit above the crowd, as Kobashi did and Mistico sort of did this year, there will be enough voters for an MMA guy to get the Lou-Ric Award.

 

That's not a complaint. Just an observation on where it's headed.

 

 

John

[Guest FlairPinnedMe]

Mistico did have a great year, but I still would have expected Danielson, or maybe even Edge to win. Not my choices, but that's what I would have expected.

 

I do think Meltzer needs to seperate MMA and wrestling a little more though. I understand MMA has a big buzz right now but that hardly constitutes a real fighter getting the wrestler of the year award.

[goodhelmet]

I just recieved the Observer and here is how the Top Ten broke down...

 

Wrestler (1st Place Votes) - Total Points

 

Mistico (220) - 2,245

Edge (134) - 1985

Tito Ortiz (261) - 1620

Bryan Danielson (83) - 947

Samoa Joe (60) - 645

Mirko Cro Cop (92) - 625

Matt Highes (78) - 516

Perro Aquayo Jr. (26) - 505

John Cena (11) - 453

Chuck Liddell (41) - 353

[Bix]

So...what's the fall from grace of CM Punk?

[Guest HTQ]

What caused it or what's going to happen becaue of it?

[Bix]

Well, both. Sounded like he had new info.

[Guest HTQ]

The cause is a combination of Punk being vocal about, amongst other things, the booking of the EC, after he found out Show was willing to tap out to his Anaconda Vice and then it getting nixed, and being seen as a Heyman project and that his being over was an 'illusion' and down the Heyman taking care of him. It's the usual politics where someone is over more than they think he should be, so they're coming up with excuses as to why that is.

 

Punk is seen as a midcard guy so they're going to book him that way. Whether he's over enough to be pushed higher doesn't matter; they've pegged him as midcard and midcard he shall be, regardless of the reactions he gets.

[sek69]

It's kinda funny, because it seems Edge was seen in the same way by the company for years, and he only got his shot at the top because they wanted to do a quick belt swap.

 

Also:

 

 

I also suspect that a growing number of "Pro Wrestling Is Pro Wrestling While MMA Is MMA" old farts who can't keep up with the times are either not voting (as I haven't in years) or letting their subs lapse (which from time-to-time I have over the past five or so years).

 

 

So you're saying anyone who sees a difference between MMA and pro wrestling is a behind the times old fart? I really don't see any connection between the two other than both are popular in Japan and both at least try to plan long term to build PPVs. I mean, pro wrestling and boxing have co-existed for about 100 years and for a good part of that time both were being presented as genuine contests. If anything, I see MMA replacing boxing in that dynamic simply because boxing seems to be unable to create any "feuds" that can generate more than one PPV buyrate.

 

I mean, if Meltzer wants to include MMA in the WON awards that's fine, but they need to either make a separate award for MMA fighters or rename the Wrestler of the Year award.

[Guest HTQ]

Pro Wrestling and MMA are virtually the same thing, except for one key difference; the matches are worked in wrestling, while they're real in MMA. Other than one being real, there's nothing to really make one that much different from the other. They both have over-the-top personalities, they both hype up PPV's with a main even they want you to pay to see, and they both have some crazy looking moves.

 

I can see why Meltzer talks about wrestling having a lot to learn from MMA, because MMA does pro wrestling better than the pro wrestling does pro wrestling.

[Phil Schneider]

I personally think Oscar De La Hoya is a lock for the Flair award next year. Maybe Floyd Maywether if he wins the fight and gets a fight later in the year. BTW the Punk news also mentioned him getting heat for making out with Maria in Iraq. Seems clear that he is fucking above his push and that is why he is getting buried.

[sek69]

Pro Wrestling and MMA are virtually the same thing, except for one key difference; the matches are worked in wrestling, while they're real in MMA. Other than one being real, there's nothing to really make one that much different from the other. They both have over-the-top personalities, they both hype up PPV's with a main even they want you to pay to see, and they both have some crazy looking moves.

 

I can see why Meltzer talks about wrestling having a lot to learn from MMA, because MMA does pro wrestling better than the pro wrestling does pro wrestling.

 

 

People tend to gloss over the real/work aspect, as if it's not that big of a distinction. Pro wrestling has a huge advantage in which they can decide who becomes a superstar. The only thing they have to worry about is a freak injury to someone they've been pushing (which as WWE has shown, can be a big problem when there's no backup plan). MMA promotions have the extra burden of worrying the guy they want to be the Next Big Thing doesn't get ktfo by someone who isn't in their plans. Hence the champ vs can matches that Pride gets knocked for by some people. Wrestling promotions don't have that problem, if someone they want to be big fails it's usually not due to lack of effort on their part building the guy (excluding cases of guys getting their pushes cut due to political bullshit things).

 

I just don't see how you can have MMA and pro wrestling intertwined on any level other than they both plan episodically to sell PPVs, they're two distinct animals that just happen to have a crossover fanbase. Even then it's not even a true crossover, but people who've grown bored of wrestling.

[jdw]

I personally think Oscar De La Hoya is a lock for the Flair award next year. Maybe Floyd Maywether if he wins the fight and gets a fight later in the year. BTW the Punk news also mentioned him getting heat for making out with Maria in Iraq. Seems clear that he is fucking above his push and that is why he is getting buried.

 

Rocky Balboa was released on 12/20/06, which makes it eligible for the 2007 WON Awards. It's pulled in $77M worldwide so far, and just starting to get rolled out internationally. It will finish up raking in over $100M worldwide at the box office. It will also do good DVD business (more than any wrestling or MMA release in the coming year), and likely spur a new box set of all the movies in the series (raking in more money).

 

It's safe to say that no Wrestling or MMA event will gross more than Sylvester Stallone's entry into Sports Entertainment in the voting period.

 

So let's see...

 

The "Rocky Balboa" character gets my vote for the Lou-Ric Award. Sly wrote it, so that makes him the "booker" of the most successful Sports Entertainment event of the year. Booker of the Year is in the bag. Sly directed it and was the executive producer, so that's got to be Promoter of the Year. Given it's total rake come 11/30/07, it will have to be Event of the Year.

 

Before anyone says that Sly wasn't a good worker here, or that it was a mediocre event, the movie pulled a rather strong 77% on the Critics Tomatometer at RottenTomatoes.com. It was a well review film, which speaks highly of Sly in all his various hats.

 

John, who thinks Pro Wrestling has far more in common with the movies than MMA...

[Loss]

Pro Wrestling and MMA are virtually the same thing, except for one key difference; the matches are worked in wrestling, while they're real in MMA. Other than one being real, there's nothing to really make one that much different from the other. They both have over-the-top personalities, they both hype up PPV's with a main even they want you to pay to see, and they both have some crazy looking moves.

 

I can see why Meltzer talks about wrestling having a lot to learn from MMA, because MMA does pro wrestling better than the pro wrestling does pro wrestling.

 

Being worked and not being worked is a major, major difference, and I think Dave underrates how substantial and important that is. When UFC fighters do promos, are they doing them specifically to generate PPV buys? Are they working with their opponent to create a major money program? Meltzer focuses on the similar promoting style, but the training, skillset and calculated goals of an MMA fighter are so drastically different than those of a pro wrestler that while I do think you can compare Dana White to Vince McMahon, you can't -- at all -- compare Edge to Chuck Lidell. UFC fighters aren't working in cooperation with the promoter to make a profitable show, to get themselves and their opponents over, and to sell the public on a match. UFC fighters aren't really put in a position where they're required to sell the public on anything, because the promoter is going to do all of that. If the only difference was that one was worked and one wasn't, then Tito Ortiz could get into pro wrestling and wouldn't need any training to immediately become a great worker. He couldn't, as we saw with Ken Shamrock in the late 90s.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree with your basic point Loss and have had this argument with Meltzer on Classics before, but Ken Shamrock is not the best guy to point to for an example..Shamrock was actually pretty good in the wrestling ring.

[sek69]

Yeah but for some reason pro wrestling seemed to be the kryptonite for his promo abilities. I heard him speak in UFC and didn't even know it was the same person at first it was so different. Plus shoot-style gimmicks don't get over much in US pro wrestling. Ken came the closest, but he just didn't look comfortable in a wrestling environment. It was like he was in constant fear of forgetting he was supposed to be working, which would be understandable considering he splattered that one guy's nose on RAW once.

[Guest HTQ]

Loss:

 

When UFC fighters do promos, are they doing them specifically to generate PPV buys?

 

They're not doing them intending to drive people away from paying to see them fight. They're doing them to tell people that they're going to fight someone else, and that they want those people to pay to see that fight.

 

UFC fighters aren't working in cooperation with the promoter to make a profitable show, to get themselves and their opponents over, and to sell the public on a match.

 

That statement makes no sense at all. The fighters are doing their best to get people to pay to see them fight, because if they don't, no matter how good a fighter they are, they'll eventually stop getting paid.

 

UFC fighters aren't really put in a position where they're required to sell the public on anything, because the promoter is going to do all of that.

 

You think Dana White would sign a fighter that can't get people to pay to see them? If a fighter can't sell himself or his fight when they're put in the main event, then they'll get canned because there is only so much a promotion can do to sell a fight to the people if the fighters involved can't get the public interested enough to pay to see the fight. Are you seriously trying to say that fighters aren't put into a position to sell their fights? UFC don't build the All Access specials around the promotion. They build them around the fighters. Why? Because the fighters are the ones helping to sell the right. It's a joint effort, with both promoters and fighters.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Ken was a wrestler turned MMA fighter.

 

I don't know if I am reading this wrong, but Tito getting 42 more first place votes than Mistico but ending up 3rd behind Edge (whom he almost doubled in first place votes) is kinda telling how the WON readership views the award, where you have one block of fans not even willing to consider an MMA fighter for the award, whereas to the other block, it's a no brainer.

[Guest HTQ]

Who would you have voted for Rudo?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I barely watched any wrestling this year, so I'd probably take myself out of the voting. It's hard to argue against Tito putting up 420,000/750,000/1,000,000+ on PPV, a 3.1 on TV (peaking 5+ million viewers for his fight), and his part in TUF3's success. If this award is "who means most to his company", then it's hard to imagine the UFC's success this year without him. Actually, it would be damn near impossible. If you add everything up, Tito probably drew over 100 million dollars for the UFC. I don't know a thing about what Mistico did this year, but I doubt he drew that much coin.

 

If you take into other considerations for wrestler of the year, then I have no clue.

[Loss]

When UFC fighters do promos, are they doing them specifically to generate PPV buys?

 

They're not doing them intending to drive people away from paying to see them fight. They're doing them to tell people that they're going to fight someone else, and that they want those people to pay to see that fight.

Of course they're not purposely driving them away, but there's an unspoken standard about what makes a good promo in pro wrestling. Does that same standard exist in MMA? Will they re-shoot if a guy stumbles over his words, or if he focuses on a weakness the promoter doesn't want him to point out because it affects the builduip? Is a fighter who can't talk going to have his marketability or drawing power affected even if he wins every fight he's in?

 

Does a fighter have any responsibility for his opponent at all? Any responsibility to put his opponent over and the upcoming match? Is he given a script or even a list of bullet points to hit? If a fighter can't talk, is he going to be booked less? Are there any examples of this happening?

 

Beyond that, you can't have wrestling without booking. There's no booking in MMA, and if you want to call matchmaking booking, it's totally different because the time given and finishes are not planned in advance. You can't tell an undercard fighter to hold back so they don't upstage the main event. It's radically different, and the stars in each have radically different goals.

 

UFC fighters aren't working in cooperation with the promoter to make a profitable show, to get themselves and their opponents over, and to sell the public on a match.

 

That statement makes no sense at all. The fighters are doing their best to get people to pay to see them fight, because if they don't, no matter how good a fighter they are, they'll eventually stop getting paid.

Are there examples of this happening in the past?

 

UFC fighters aren't really put in a position where they're required to sell the public on anything, because the promoter is going to do all of that.

 

You think Dana White would sign a fighter that can't get people to pay to see them? If a fighter can't sell himself or his fight when they're put in the main event, then they'll get canned because there is only so much a promotion can do to sell a fight to the people if the fighters involved can't get the public interested enough to pay to see the fight. Are you seriously trying to say that fighters aren't put into a position to sell their fights? UFC don't build the All Access specials around the promotion. They build them around the fighters. Why? Because the fighters are the ones helping to sell the right. It's a joint effort, with both promoters and fighters.

Again, are the fighters given specific bullet points to hit and specific things to avoid? UFC All Access *is* a promoting technique, one that wrestling could learn from.

 

Comparing pro wrestling to something that doesn't have booking, selling, a clearly named babyface and a clearly named heel, and planned finishes makes no sense to me at all. I don't see the logic in comparing something that is real to something that isn't.

[Loss]

Okay, by the Ortiz standard, is Tito Ortiz considered a "good worker"? Because that was what always supposedly kept Hogan from winning the award in the 80s, despite meaning more to his company and leading his company to more success than anyone else.