WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year

[Dylan Waco]

Oh, I almost never watch TNA, because West is virtually the only thing on the show I like. I will never ever try and push someone to watch a TNA show.

[shoe]

I think it's really unfair how people are critical of Cena because of how the fans react to him. Ric Flair was cheered a lot when he was winning best heel in the Observer awards. Steamboat is thought of as one of the great babyface workers of all time. He was booed a lot in his 89 feud with Flair. Dusty was a great babyface. He was booed in a lot of places. In today's WWE it's upside down world. Just look at a few years ago how HHH the heel was winning clean with the pedigree. The Heels do most of the ass kicking in the WWE. cena is one of the 3 best babyfaces to be in the WWE in the last 10 years behin Austin, and the Rock. The main difference is that Austin, and Rock got to kick ass much like the recent DX reunion tour.John Cena won't be the last babyface to get mixed reactions.

[gordi]

For the record, I've always enjoyed watching Cena wrestle and do the other peripheral stuff. It's just that:

 

1) I don't think that someone who draws a mixed reaction almost everywhere he goes should be sweeping the awards, particularly the awards that get handed out on the basis of controlling the crowd's reaction. He's good, but he isn't (at this point, in my opinion) THE BEST.

 

2) I didn't get as much out of his brawl vs. Umaga as most people seem to have done. I enjoyed it, but it didn't blow me away.

 

That being said, it might just be a factor of me not watching much WWE any more, and so missing out on the build and the development of Cena's character. Whenever I do see him, he is entertaining as always, but he seems to have no control whatsoever over the crowd's reaction to him. Flair, for example, seemed to have the majority of the crowd in the palm of his hand most of the time. Cena seems like he's forced to work against the crowd as often as not.

 

That's not hating on Cena, nor is it being unfair. It's a big part of a pro wrestler's job to control crowd reactions. Cena's getting better at it, and he's definitely improved in the ring... but he isn't there yet.

 

I see Morishima and the Briscoes as examples of pro wrestlers who do a much better job of getting the reactions that they want out of the crowds that they play to. A huge part of that may be down to Cena having to take part in poorly-scripted skits and recite poorly-written promos... but I'm still not overly impressed by the audience-psych aspects of Cena's performance.

[Jingus]

Jerry Lawler, Steve Austin, The Rock, Bill Dundee, Ric Flair, Nick Bockwinkel...

Flair doesn't punch... he sure does lean on that chop though. Personally, I'd rather see some counter-fest mat wrestling or cool flippy dives than someone who just throws punch after clearly fake punch. Same thing that often bugged me about Bret, for a "technical wrestler" he sure did rely on those overhand rights.

 

His execution has been fine for awhile. The FU is exactly what it's supposed to be and his punches/clotheslines are actively good now when they were his biggest weakness 2 years ago.

No, Stan Hansen is what I call "actively good" punches and clotheslines. Cena's have always looked weak. And how is the FU "exactly what it's supposed to be" when its so sloppy that it often appears to be different moves entirely? I've seen occasions where one could argue that it was a death valley driver, a fireman's carry slam, a samoan drop, or a michinoku driver. And it rarely looks like it hurts more than a standard bodyslam. Its only real positive is Cena's freaky caveman strength, since he can do it to pretty much any sized opponent.

 

On a similar note: the crappiest STF this side of Erik Watts. Cena's supposed to be a brawler, why use a submission finish?

 

The content isn't his fault. His delivery is excellent.

Like during his "street fighter" days, when he was the... slowest... rapper... alive? Did the office tell him to do all those gay jokes?

 

Why doesn't it make sense? He sells, makes a comeback, and slays the giant. How is this different from the last several decades of pro wrestling?

The booking. How did it make any sense at all for Khali to tap out in their first match? (And I HATE me some Khali, but I still get mad when anyone is clearly being shafted by stupid writing.) Or for them to retroactively shit on the awesome WMXX finish with HHH tapping out to the STF before it had really been established as a finisher, and to tap out way faster than he did to the crossface? Once again, Cena's not a goddamn technical wrestler, he's not supposed to be, he's just a punchkick guy.

 

You don't have to like him, but that doesn't mean your arguments aren't full of holes.

So, if my arguments are so wrong... why do I hate watching his matches?

 

Opinions and blah blah, but I have no idea who somebody can think Tenay is better than anyone in 2007.

My loathing for Todd Grisham knows no bounds, I wouldn't even consider that guy a real wrestling announcer. And I think Cole is pretty worthless all around.

 

Steamboat is thought of as one of the great babyface workers of all time. He was booed a lot in his 89 feud with Flair.

I've seen all their taped matches from that period, and Steamboat never got booed close to how Cena did at WM22, ONS2, etcetera.

 

That's an interesting take on it, DW. Sitting next to a ranting redneck at a live show can be fun, in a way... but week in week out on TV that just totally fails to appeal to me. Maybe I need to lighten up. I find it easier to just not watch TNA, though, unless there's a match that is truly compelling

Pretty much my opinion too. I want snarky in-joke color and "oh my gawd" passionate play-by-play. I don't dig West's act of being the loudest marky mark who ever marked. Tremendously nice guy, that really IS him you're seeing on the screen, but not what I want screaming in my ear when I'm trying to enjoy the already iffy "quality matches" that TNA gives us.

[Loss]

I can understand where you're coming from to an extent, but I would also argue that while the initial mixed reaction was not something the company created or wanted, it is a reaction WWE has since found desirable. They now purposely book in a way to get that mixed reaction because it increases Cena's appeal -- both as a babyface and a heel.

[Dylan Waco]

The Briscoes have gotten alot better but really "getting the appropriate response from crowds" isn't very hard when the desired response is a "HOLY SHIT!" chants, and your whole schtick is that you are psychos who will do anything.

[sek69]

No, Stan Hansen is what I call "actively good" punches and clotheslines.

Not that Hansen wasn't awesome, but his punches and clotheslines looked good because he was legit clobbering people half the time since he was close to blind without his glasses on.

[Bix]

Jerry Lawler, Steve Austin, The Rock, Bill Dundee, Ric Flair, Nick Bockwinkel...

Flair doesn't punch... he sure does lean on that chop though. Personally, I'd rather see some counter-fest mat wrestling or cool flippy dives than someone who just throws punch after clearly fake punch. Same thing that often bugged me about Bret, for a "technical wrestler" he sure did rely on those overhand rights.

Flair punches and you totally missed the point.

 

 

His execution has been fine for awhile. The FU is exactly what it's supposed to be and his punches/clotheslines are actively good now when they were his biggest weakness 2 years ago.

No, Stan Hansen is what I call "actively good" punches and clotheslines. Cena's have always looked weak.

Cena doesn't have the luxury of being a blind dude potatoing people. His clotheslines & punches have looked good for at least six months, maybe more. He looked like he killed Michaels at WM.

 

And how is the FU "exactly what it's supposed to be" when its so sloppy that it often appears to be different moves entirely? I've seen occasions where one could argue that it was a death valley driver, a fireman's carry slam, a samoan drop, or a michinoku driver. And it rarely looks like it hurts more than a standard bodyslam. Its only real positive is Cena's freaky caveman strength, since he can do it to pretty much any sized opponent.

It's a fireman's carry slam. It has always been a fireman's carry slam, and has been pretty uniform in its execution during the period people have been pimping him.

 

On a similar note: the crappiest STF this side of Erik Watts. Cena's supposed to be a brawler, why use a submission finish?

He was booked in a submission match with Chris Masters, the idea being that it was stacked against him. He hooked it, it worked, he kept using it. You'd know this if you'd watch the shows,

[Bix]

Cont'd (could Loss please up the number of allowed quote tags if possible?)...

 

 

The content isn't his fault. His delivery is excellent.

Like during his "street fighter" days, when he was the... slowest... rapper... alive? Did the office tell him to do all those gay jokes?

They script the promos, so yes. Plus, he hasn't done the gay baiting in awhile and Loss likes him.

 

Why doesn't it make sense? He sells, makes a comeback, and slays the giant. How is this different from the last several decades of pro wrestling?

The booking. How did it make any sense at all for Khali to tap out in their first match? (And I HATE me some Khali, but I still get mad when anyone is clearly being shafted by stupid writing.) Or for them to retroactively shit on the awesome WMXX finish with HHH tapping out to the STF before it had really been established as a finisher, and to tap out way faster than he did to the crossface? Once again, Cena's not a goddamn technical wrestler, he's not supposed to be, he's just a punchkick guy.

Khali tapping was bad booking. If you actually read what people post, you'd see that.

 

The STFU debuted about 5 months before WM, and HHH was locked in it for a decent bit of time.

 

You don't have to like him, but that doesn't mean your arguments aren't full of holes.

So, if my arguments are so wrong... why do I hate watching his matches?

You have bad taste in wrestling? You wish he did MOAR M0VE5?

 

Steamboat is thought of as one of the great babyface workers of all time. He was booed a lot in his 89 feud with Flair.

I've seen all their taped matches from that period, and Steamboat never got booed close to how Cena did at WM22, ONS2, etcetera.

Steamboat was rejected pretty badly at times, and fans are MUCH bigger attention whore now. WM22 and ONS were both booked to maximize the booing.

[Loss]

Settings have been updated where you can now include up to 200 (!) quote tags in a post.

 

This opens the door for lots of line-by-line arguing, and I personally can't wait.

[Jingus]

You have bad taste in wrestling?

Fuck it, I quit, I'm not interested in debating with someone who responds to my very real complaints with "YOU HAVNT PAID ATTENTION & R STOOPID LOL".

[Bix]

You have bad taste in wrestling?

Fuck it, I quit, I'm not interested in debating with someone who responds to my very real complaints with "YOU HAVNT PAID ATTENTION & R STOOPID LOL".

 

But you HAVEN'T been paying attention.

[Dylan Waco]

To be fair, that was one line from Bix, and he was at least trying to address your other comments.

[World's Worst Man]

From what I've seen recently (which isn't much), Cena's execution seems to be hit or miss, which I suppose is better than the 100% miss he used to be. Like, I thought it was fine in his WM match with HBK, but I've seen TV matches where it still looks like he couldn't hurt a newborn infant. He doesn't have to be stiffing his opponents, but it's hard to suspend disbelief when he's basically feathering guys to the mat with slams, or barely touching them with his arm on clotheslines. Maybe I have odd standards, but I would say that competently executing maneuvers is part of being a good worker. That means making the moves look like they hurt, or at the very least making sure they don't look completely preposterous. I wouldn't call Cena a good worker, much less the best in the world, until that part of his game becomes consistently solid.

[Jingus]

He doesn't have to be stiffing his opponents, but it's hard to suspend disbelief when he's basically feathering guys to the mat with slams, or barely touching them with his arm on clotheslines.

Exactly. I wasn't saying you gotta be stiff, that's ludicrous, I was just naming one example of someone who actually looks like they're making contact on everything. Here's another one: Bobby Eaton. His punches look like he's breaking the other guy's jaw, and yet he's barely even tapping them.

 

Maybe I have odd standards, but I would say that competently executing maneuvers is part of being a good worker. That means making the moves look like they hurt, or at the very least making sure they don't look completely preposterous.

No. Those aren't odd standards. At all.

 

I can get into a worker if they fulfill just one of these things:

 

1. They execute their moves really nicely and make 'em look painful (Benoit)

2. They use different moves that I don't see too often (Nitro)

3. They are just such amazing athletes that they can do stuff with their bodies that nobody else can compete with (RVD)

 

But what's to like about a guy who does the exact same shit that everyone else does, and doesn't even do it particularly well?

[Dylan Waco]

Wait, are you suggesting that RVD and Nitro are better than Cena?

 

Honestly I don't get the logic here. I understand that after a while it is nice to see someone do something fresh, but for the most part the notion that new is good is not one to live by. That notion brought us things like Vince Russo and the modern X Division.

[Bix]

In fairness, Nitro is kinda awesome.

 

I can get into a worker if they fulfill just one of these things:

 

1. They execute their moves really nicely and make 'em look painful (Benoit)

2. They use different moves that I don't see too often (Nitro)

3. They are just such amazing athletes that they can do stuff with their bodies that nobody else can compete with (RVD)

 

But what's to like about a guy who does the exact same shit that everyone else does, and doesn't even do it particularly well?

YEAH, FUCK STORYTELLING! Selling is overrated. RVD is way better than Cena because he does M0AR M0V35!

[Ray]

Man after reading this I wonder if I'm the only person who still follows what's happening in Japan.

 

Matt Hardy is in half of the year's top ten matches? I don't get that at all. Looking over my personal MOTY list I don't see anything that would crack my top 30.

[Dylan Waco]

Oh, I like Nitro fine and thought MNM was a legit great team. But I don't really see any argument that he is better than Cena.

 

At some point the Cena haters are going to have to explain how it is that he keeps stumbiling into great matches, when their favorites haven't been able to reach those heights, even when given serious chances (RVD being a picture perfect example).

[Bix]

Khali clearly carried Cena.

[Dylan Waco]

Man after reading this I wonder if I'm the only person who still follows what's happening in Japan.

 

Matt Hardy is in half of the year's top ten matches? I don't get that at all. Looking over my personal MOTY list I don't see anything that would crack my top 30.

 

I sort of follow what is going on in Japan and got caught up big time last year where I watched pretty much all of the big matches...I have to say that some of the supposedly great Japanese matches last year were actively bad, the most consistent promotion was Big Japan (never thought I'd say that) and the most consistently good wrestler was probably Akira Taue. I enjoyed the hell out of MUGA and if someone wants to argue that I should track some of that stuff down, I would listen, but honestly after the level of disappointment with the "great" stuff from last year it's going to be hard to convince me to waste hours watching boring repetitive NOAH main events or horribly shity Yugi Nagata "classics".

 

I watched a couple of the heavily pimped matches from January. I thought they were pretty weak. That same month I watched Umaga v. Cena and MNM v. Hardyz. Both were as good or better than any Japanese match I have seen over the last two years.

[Jingus]

Wait, are you suggesting that RVD and Nitro are better than Cena?

Yep. To me, anyway. Regardless of what some people may claim, we're all just arguing our different opinions here.

 

And oh yeah, storytelling is great. But Cena always tells the same damn story, and I didn't like it the first time I heard it.

[Dylan Waco]

It is true that we are talking about opinions, but the truth is that if you are going to get offended when people offer criticisms of your opinions you probably shouldn't air them on a public message board.

 

Anyhow, RVD has had maybe two or three good singles matches in the last two years. Cena has had dozens. Care to explain this?

[Bix]

Cena always tells the same damn story

So does Kobashi.

[Resident Evil]

When I saw Jingus posting here, I knew it'd only be a matter of time before he was arguing about Cena with Bix. Jingus would talk about Cena's execution and Bix would retaliate with MOVEZZ!!

 

With wrestling, it's about being believable enough for the person to get wrapped up in it. It's the foundation of the house.

 

Jingus doesn't find Cena believable or buys into him enough to the point where he despises his wrestling. That's fine.

 

Bix finds Cena believable or buys into him enough to the point where he loves his wrestling. That's fine too.