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WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year


Bix

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Cena always tells the same damn story

So does Kobashi.

 

Also, that is not entirely true. He tells variations of the same story, but there are pretty clear variations. Last year opposite HHH at WM (HHH is the big dawg Mania is HHH show), opposte Van Dam at ONS (ECW is Van Dams world) and opposite Edge in TLC in Toronto (Edges match and hometown) were pretty clearly matches designed to get negative responses for Cena, and matches were Cena was expected to adjust his game to overcome very different circumstances that were all seemingly insurmontable. I don't know anyone who argues these maches were bad matches, yet they were all pretty clearly matches that were more about Cena than his opponent and all pretty clearly matches that standout as uniquely good matches for his opponents. Yet somehow Cena tells the same boring story and sucks..hmm

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Anyhow, RVD has had maybe two or three good singles matches in the last two years. Cena has had dozens. Care to explain this?

Yeah. I would dispute the numbers. I've seen only a handful of Cena matches that I enjoyed. I've seen only a handful of RVD matches that I didn't enjoy. (Almost all in New ECW, the worst wrestling show on TV.)

 

So does Kobashi.

...huh? True, Kobashi is kinda repetitive, "drop me on my head then I LARIATOOO then we both fall down" and such. But he can change it up just fine depending on the opponent. I thought his match against Joe was better than anything I've ever seen Cena do.
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I follow NOAH, AJPW, NJPW and Dragon's Gate as much as I can. I essentially get everything they put out on DVD that IVP gets in. While I enjoy those promotions, NJPW and DG being my top two, I have failed to see anything rise above a pack of good matches. There's been a nice upswing as far as match quality and consistency but no one's put on a truly great match as far as I've seen. Now granted I haven't seen the newest batch of shows from late April and May but I dobut the Nakamura/Makabe chain match or any of the CC matches are going to blow me away either.

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Anyhow, RVD has had maybe two or three good singles matches in the last two years. Cena has had dozens. Care to explain this?

Yeah. I would dispute the numbers. I've seen only a handful of Cena matches that I enjoyed. I've seen only a handful of RVD matches that I didn't enjoy. (Almost all in New ECW, the worst wrestling show on TV.)

 

So does Kobashi.

...huh? True, Kobashi is kinda repetitive, "drop me on my head then I LARIATOOO then we both fall down" and such. But he can change it up just fine depending on the opponent. I thought his match against Joe was better than anything I've ever seen Cena do.

 

I like Kobashi/Joe alot, but really it wasn't much better than Cena/JBL from Judgement Day 05 and that was a match very early in Cenas transition into a full time quality wrestler.

 

Also, I am interested. Where are these good RVD matches over the last couple of years? I'm actually not usually a guy who hates on Van Dam, as I think he can be useful at times, but he has really been remarkably bad in one on one encounters for some time. When he first came back he went through this wierd phase where he was really good at taking nasty unprotected headbumps and it worked well because he was working in multi-mans and odd situations. But for the most part he's been fairly weak since his return. You point to thee terrible new ECW...yet the Big Show and Ric Flair had a very good match on that show, and that was hardly the only good match the show has provided. Interestingly enough Sabu v. Van Dam was an awful match on that show..one of the worst of that entire year..espcially odd because Cena managed to have good matches with Sabu and Van Dam that year. Would you suggest those matches were bad? And how do you account for the awful RVD/Sabu match even though it ws given time, Sabu was on a role at the time (he had a good match with Big Show around this period for example, and I'm willing to betyou aren't much of a fan), the two have a strong history together and it was in an enviornment that in theory was favorable to them?

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Big Show did damned fine as the ECW champion. If memory serves, he's about the same age now as Andre was when he died, but Show was still out there every night falling off the apron through tables, getting busted open with chairs, selling for pretty much everyone. He didn't have many matches that just made me want to turn off the tv. Which is more than damn near anyone else on the show can say. Sabu did indeed have some godawful matches with RVD, especially that one ladder match. Had a terrible one with Angle on Kurt's last tv match too, which hurts to say, cuz I'm a fan of both of those guys.

 

But with RVD, I'm pretty easy to please. As long as he does a couple of his amazing jumps, kicks someone really hard, and takes a couple of gravity-defying bumps, I'm happy. I mark for guys who can physically do things that nobody else can quite do.

 

Hot start, strike exchange, dude works over Kobashi's knee, FIGHTING SPIRIT, headdrop headdrop, pin.

Yeah, just ignore all the STORYTELLING, like Joe getting cute by pulling out various old AJPW guys' moves and then getting his ass kicked for it, so he changes back into Joe Smash mode with the knees to the head and such, so Kobashi responds with...

 

Yep, no story whatsoever.

 

Man, fuck that Ric Flair, too. He had samey matches, so he must be awful!

Yep, he had a lot of matches that looked a lot alike. But I liked the Generic Flair Match. Can't say the same about Cena.
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Jingus, all bullshit aside, I'd like to here your thoughts on the three Cena matches above and the way he worked those matches.

 

Also, being a guy who is by his own admission big on execution of moves, it doesn't bother you that RVD probably has worse offensive exectuion at this point, than pretty much anyone on the WWE roster?

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RVD's punches look like crap, but I've never minded the rest of his stuff. His kicks are just fine, and as long as you make contact with stuff like aerial dives I'm happy.

 

HHH at WM (HHH is the big dawg Mania is HHH show)

Meh. Everyone else raved about this match, and I just didn't get it. Seemed like a standard HHH main event match, other than the outta-nowhere submission. No better than any of HHH's other WM main matches.

 

Van Dam at ONS (ECW is Van Dams world)

Perfectly acceptable wrestling for the most part. Cena at least didn't let the crowd get to him, unlike Batista and various others who fell down & went boom inside Hammerstein. Although I did find it funny that, when the crowd starts chanting "you can't wrestle", Cena responds with... an ordinary vertical suplex, the most basic 101 wrestling move in the book.

 

Edge in TLC in Toronto (Edges match and hometown)

Didn't see most of it. I only remember a couple of the big spots, and they looked okay. Though one would think that Edge could have a good ladder match with anyone from Khali on down by now.

 

 

I'm not a blind hater who thinks that all Cena's matches will inevitably suck. Hell, I liked his Mania match against JBL, and I'm pretty much a minority of one there. But he tends to wrestle his matches in a style that simply makes me want to reach for the remote.

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RVDs punches are terrible, but it's his awful execution with his allegedly "educated feet" coupled by the fact that he has trouble hitting major signature spots that he has been doing for years that has earned him a reputation as being exceptionally sloppy. Really I am trying to think of a less crisp wrestler on the roster right now and only Shelton Benjamin comes to mind (and Benjamin is essentially Rob Van Dam/Kurt Angle hybrid).

 

Anyhow, I think you really ought to watch those three Cena matches again if you get the chance. It may not change your opinion on Cena, but the way he works is drastically different in all three and he is definaely playing off the crowd.

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RVD and Shelton aren't that sloppy. Guys like Mark Henry or Khali, now that's sloppy.

 

I've seen two of those matches several times already, and don't currently have a copy of any of 'em. So even if I wanted to go back and rewatch those (which I don't, remember, I hate the guy, and I've got a massive stack of other, better stuff I haven't watched recently) I couldn't.

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See, I have no problem with people liking Cena, but I hate it when they reply with stuff like 'you don't like wrestling', 'you have no taste', and the most despicable one, 'Moves~!'.

 

I mean, what's wrong with wanting a few different moves? I remember watching RVD v Jeff Hardy after not seeing any ECW, and being blown away with what they did. It isn't all about storytelling, fuck, I'll take a Necro match over a Danielson match any day of the week.

 

I just find Cena's 'stories' boring, and I'd rather watch two guys mindlessly kick the crap out of each other than watch him work his formula. I understand why his formula is there, and it has kept him over with the kids and women, but I just don't like it.

 

You brought up Rock and Austin and Flair and Lawler, Bix, but they had a lot more to their game then Cena. I can't see a heel Cena working a match with Angle like Austin did, for instance.

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I don't think there's anything wrong with liking good offense in wrestling, and I don't think that was being implied either. I think the point is that if you just look at one aspect of what Cena can do, you're missing out on some really good match layouts, some really good selling performances, and some surprisingly good matches against a pretty diverse group of opponents. RVD, HHH, Umaga, JBL, Great Khali and Shawn Michaels are not really the same type of wrestler, and I really felt like all the matches were something different.

 

I agree that Cena's biggest weakness at this point is still his execution. 100%, wholeheartedly agree. That said, it's one of many things that make a wrestler talented. There are nights when you see Cena looking really good as far as his execution, and there are nights where you see he is struggling a little bit. He's not a natural. But he has such a good mind for wrestling and is such a great sympathy seller and has had so many good matches that I still think he should be classified as a good worker, in spite of his weaknesses.

 

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If anything, it reminds me of The Rock around 2000. You could tell his mind was in the right place and he was having good matches, but physically, he was a bit awkward at times and it took him a little longer to get past that. But he did get past it, and Cena will too. And as much as Rock improved in 2001 (and in his limited number of matches after that), I wouldn't write off everything he did prior that either.

 

We haven't seen John Cena hit his peak yet, and considering what he's already accomplished, it's hard to argue that as anything but impressive. Still, he's pretty good, because he understands the big picture so well. And what I like about him is that he has the mind of a veteran in the ring, in that if the crowd completely flips out and does something unexpected, he handles it well and keeps his cool under pressure. I think that's actually his strong point.

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and some surprisingly good matches against a pretty diverse group of opponents. RVD, HHH, Umaga, JBL, Great Khali and Shawn Michaels

I think people are overstating these matches a bit though. The RVD match was mostly dull, and only worked in part due to the reaction of the crowd and RVD nearly killing himself with DDT's and stuff. The HHH match was great for the first 10 minutes or so, when they looked like they were going to take it somewhere, but the last 10 just degenerated into your typical WWE/HHH match.

 

The Umaga match was a good brawl with some neat spots, but at no point had me excited or made me believe in it. The JBL match, similarly, didn't live up to its hype on various message boards or the standard set by the Eddie match, and was more a bunch of spots than a great match.

 

Haven't seen the Khali or HBK bouts.

 

is such a great sympathy seller

I don't think he is though. I mean, yes, his selling is actually great, but I don't feel sympathy for him because I know he'll eventually come back, hit his sequence and win. I never feel he's in danger of losing.

 

If anything, it reminds me of The Rock around 2000.

I don't think he's as good as Rock 2000 though. In what he actually does in the ring, he maybe even better, but Rock added little touched to his matches, and his charisma always showed through. He also outclasses Cena as an interview.

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Cena finds a way to win. He's not really a champ who easily dominates his opponents. If people aren't buying that the guy across the ring can beat him, in the case of Cena, I really think that's a reflection on the booking not doing an adequate job creating doubt. In a typical case like this, a wrestler does shoulder some of the blame, but I've never gotten the impression from any Cena match that he isn't taking the other guy seriously or thinks he's somehow above him.

 

I do agree that WWE hasn't done the best of jobs creating real threats for Cena at times. Of everyone he's been programmed against lately, only Michaels was a guy that really seemed to stand a chance of winning. The Umaga match is a tad overrated and felt more like a movie fight scene to me than a wrestling match, but it was still a terrific performance from Cena and a very good match. The RAW match with Michaels is really the best match I've seen Michaels have since coming back in 2002, and is also my pick for best Cena match and performance ever.

 

Rock outclasses Cena as an interview. Rock outclasses all but a very small handful of guys in history as an interview. But I still think the comparison of the two at respective stages of their careers is valid. I think you could argue HHH in 2000 being better than Michaels in 2007 -- a stronger heel, a better wrestler with more to offer ... just all around better in every way I can think of. And yet, I still don't think that the Rock/HHH Ironman, while it was impressive, was as good as Michaels/Cena from TV.

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Guest FlairPinnedMe

slightly late, but here goes.

 

Lou Thesz/Ric Flair Award (Wrestler of the Year)

Cena or Nagata... probably Cena

 

Most Outstanding Wrestler

Same as above, but I'd give the edge to Nagata here.

 

Best Box Office Draw

Cena

 

Feud of the Year

Nothing really stands out here.

 

Tag Team of the Year

Pre draft, you can't go wrong with London and Kendrick. Cade and Murdoch may have it by the end of the year though.

 

Most Improved

MVP defintely deserves this. Tanahashi too.

 

Best on Interviews

Flair or Edge

 

Most Charismatic

Edge

 

Best Technical Wrestler

Benoit

 

Bruiser Brody Memorial Award - Best Brawler

Cena, just for the Rumble match alone

 

Best Flying Wrestler

Mistico I suppose

 

Most Overrated

Kennedy

 

Most Underrated

No one really stands out

 

Promotion of the Year

No doubt UFC will win, but my pick would be NJPW.

 

Best Weekly Television Show

I would bet TUF wins, but I'd pick Raw I guess. Rarely catch smackdown.

 

Worked Match of the Year

Nagata/Suzuki from 1/4 or Nagata/Tanahashi from 4/23

 

Rookie of the Year

No one stands out too much here either..

 

Best Non-Wrestler

Vince has been great

 

Best Television Announcer

JBL for sure

 

Worst Television Announcer

Michael Cole

 

Best Major Show

NJ 1/4

 

Worst Major Show

out of what i've seen... probably lockdown

 

Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic

nothing has been really offensive or disgusting

 

Worst Television Show

Impact

 

Worst Worked Match of the Year

Blindfold match Storm vs Harris from Lockdown

 

Worst Feud of the Year

Eric Young vs Robert Roode.

 

Worst Promotion

TNA, NOAH has been pretty horrible too

 

Best Booker

Probably Hayes... If Dana White qualifies here it'll surely be him

 

Promoter of the Year

Vince. Dana will win

 

Best Gimmick

Cant think of any really good ones

 

Worst Gimmick

Kennedy

 

Best Pro Wrestling Book

Didn't pick up any this year

 

Best Pro Wrestling DVD

Horsemen. I'd say the Heroes of world class will win though.

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I don't think he is though. I mean, yes, his selling is actually great, but I don't feel sympathy for him because I know he'll eventually come back, hit his sequence and win. I never feel he's in danger of losing.

You know, I've seen this argument used a bunch of times in a bunch of different places, and while I understand it, I don't really get what the big deal is. The first time I saw "Citizen Kane", I knew that "Rosebud" was a sled. The first time I saw "The Empire Strikes Back", I knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father. The first time I saw "Psycho", I knew that Norman's "mother" was actually Norman in drag. It didn't really hurt my enjoyment of any of those movies. I know that's not a strictly analoguous situation, but the point is I don't really see predictability as automatically being a bad thing. 90% of good wrestling booking is just doing what's obvious. Frankly, I applaud the WWE for actually committing themselves to maintaining a strong babyface company ace, particularly one who is still fairly young, and who seems driven to keep improving in-ring.

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RVD and Shelton aren't that sloppy. Guys like Mark Henry or Khali, now that's sloppy.

 

I've seen two of those matches several times already, and don't currently have a copy of any of 'em. So even if I wanted to go back and rewatch those (which I don't, remember, I hate the guy, and I've got a massive stack of other, better stuff I haven't watched recently) I couldn't.

Oh come on, you have to be kidding. Really you might be the only wrestling fan I know who won't grant that RVD and Shelton are sloppy.

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I agree that Cena's biggest weakness at this point is still his execution. 100%, wholeheartedly agree. That said, it's one of many things that make a wrestler talented. There are nights when you see Cena looking really good as far as his execution, and there are nights where you see he is struggling a little bit. He's not a natural. But he has such a good mind for wrestling and is such a great sympathy seller and has had so many good matches that I still think he should be classified as a good worker, in spite of his weaknesses.

This is a particularly interesting point because a few years ago there was a guy on the roster who was tremendous at selling, but had a fairly limitied moveset and many of his signature moves were done in a very sloppy, weak or otherwise haphazard way. This included the guys finisher(s) with to be honest were applied much less consistently than the FU or STFU supposedly are. Somehow despite this fact the guy still managed to have very good to great matches with regularity...not only that, but the matches were generally recognized as such by many of the same fans that actively loathe Cena today.

 

Of course Cena was never the net darling that Chris Benoit was.

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RVD and Shelton aren't that sloppy. Guys like Mark Henry or Khali, now that's sloppy.

Define sloppy.

 

Fat, sweaty, black.

 

Well, Khali IS sweaty, but I don't know about fat or black.

 

I should've put an "and/or" in there.

 

The latent racism is really the best/worst part of Mark Henry discussions.

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I think it's more the anti-big man thing than it is a racist thing. The same people who don't like Mark Henry probably like Shelton Benjamin and Jay Lethal.

I think so too. Look at the anti A-Train and anti Scott Norton wrestling fans. There was no racism there but yet they went through the same thing despite both of them being really good workers. Of course, I've always been a mark for the big guys in wrestling but still. I think people who are defending Mark Henry (Who I am a fan of as well) are jumping to the racism card too quickly.

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