Al Posted December 9, 2007 Report Share Posted December 9, 2007 Just because Mutoh wrestled as Super Ninja in Florida back in 1986 or so, Scooter thinks every Super Ninja is Mutoh despite it being a pretty common Generic Japanese Wrestler name of the time. Honestly, I think missing out on the Rockers was just as big a blunder for the AWA as losing Hogan. At least Verne seemed to realize Hogan might be something, nothing showed how out of touch he was as the famous story of them trying to explain their team name and Verne thinking they meant "rockers" as in "rocking chairs". I can't really see how the AWA missed out on the Rockers. They had them, put them in a long title chase program that produced a few classics, and gave them the titles in the blowoff. The Rockers jettisoned to WWE, got fired, came back and they got the titles again. I can't see any fault with the booking, and I can't see what the AWA could've done to keep them. They were absolutely bleeding good talent. On that note, what kept Sgt. Slaughter in until the bitter end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2007 Well everyone points to letting Hogan get away as the big "Verne losing touch with the buisness" moment, but he seemed to have absolutely no idea he had anything with the Rockers. Verne was such a "wrestling over flash" kind of guy and he let one of the all time great in ring performers slip away because he didn't understand their team name and just didn't get the kids these days. At least with Hogan, he seemed to at least realize that Hulk was something special, he just got outfoxed by Vince. Also, wasn't Sarge in the AWA till the end due to being defacto blackballed from the WWF? I seem to recall their parting wasn't exactly on frendly terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest STAN Posted December 9, 2007 Report Share Posted December 9, 2007 I sort of see how Vince could think he was backed into a corner. If Bret is still on WWF TV with the title, especially at a taped show, and Bischoff goes on a live Nitro and announces that WCW has signed Hart, the WWF is basically screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2007 Well there was no way Bret could have shown up on Nitro with the physical belt, but I'm sure Eric would have done something to rub Vince's nose in it, which is probably the real reason all the bullshit went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 Well everyone points to letting Hogan get away as the big "Verne losing touch with the buisness" moment, but he seemed to have absolutely no idea he had anything with the Rockers. Verne was such a "wrestling over flash" kind of guy and he let one of the all time great in ring performers slip away because he didn't understand their team name and just didn't get the kids these days. At least with Hogan, he seemed to at least realize that Hulk was something special, he just got outfoxed by Vince. Also, wasn't Sarge in the AWA till the end due to being defacto blackballed from the WWF? I seem to recall their parting wasn't exactly on frendly terms. To the best of my knowledge, Sarge and the WWF split because of Slauighter making his own deal with the GI Joe people and Vince not getting a taste. Sarge was around for most of the AWA's final days but he was absent for several long stretches. i don't know where he was working, if at all, during those stretches. The first Rocker run was basically just them against Rose and Somers, and they ran that program about a month too long. They got around 4 grand at the Christmas Cage match in St. paul (non-title), and then in their "final title match ever" on January 27th in Bloomington they only drew 950. it was telling that the feud ran so long that either nobody cared that the Rockers were going to win the title, or they didn't believe Verne would give them the belts and they were leaving. Most "win or no more title shots" types of matches draw well because the fans believe that the heroes will prevail. By this point in the AWA, nobody trusted that feeling since Vince was grabbing everyone (plus so many screwy finishes in that feud up until that point had soured the people on the obvious outcome as it ended up playing out.) Their second run as champs had a more varied roster of challengers, but the AWA was almost in a freefall by that point so less people were seeing them. Even if Verne had done everything perfectly with them it probably would have just gotten Vince's attention faster and they would have been gone to the WWF earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 11, 2007 Report Share Posted December 11, 2007 ..also I caught the end of that phantom title change between the Rockers and The Hart Foundation that is on this set on youtube yesterday. The ending was very sloppy and I didn't care much for the other bit that I saw (admittedly I need to see the whole thing for better context). IMO it's nice from a "lost footage" perspective but not much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Verne ran falsh finishes in plenty of other feuds, no? I recall seeing one between Hennig and Greg Gagne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Well they almost caused riots with the false finishes they did with Hogan-Bockwinkel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Verne ran falsh finishes in plenty of other feuds, no? I recall seeing one between Hennig and Greg Gagne. Oh yeah. It happened in a ton of towns through the AWA circuit over the course of it's history. It wasn't a big deal before the internet and cable TV. Nobody knew it was happening in other towns besides their own. As a slightly-off-topic FYI, the Greg Gagne-Curt Hennig title match on the Powerful Familes of Wrestling disc is NOT from May 15, 1988, as advertised. That may be the airdate of the match on TV (this is apparently how they have dated the Rose/Somers vs. the Rockers matches on this Michaels volume, too). The Gagne-Hennig match is from the Minneapolis Auditorium on Thanksgiving night 1987 to the best of my knowledge. The Gagne-Hennig feud was more contained to the Minneapolis area cards and not a series widely acknowledged in the AWA. That probably explains why they showed it so much later than it actually happened on the regular AWA TV shows. Sorry for the temporary hijack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 You know, something just occurred to me. One of the main reasons given for why Montreal had to go down (from Vince/HBK/HHH's viewpoint) is that Bret wasn't doing business the right way by dropping the belt on the way out, or something along those lines. However, not even 6 months later, HBK was trying to weasel out of dropping the title on what what figured to be the last match he was supposed to have before leaving due to his injury. He knew he was on his way out, yet only "did business" under threat of an ass whooping from Taker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 How is the Busters vs. Rockers match? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHawk Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Here's what I find funny about the Harts-Rockers match (spoiler alert). The kayfabe reason for the reversal was the rope breaking in the second fall caused an unfair advantage for both teams. The Rockers won the first and third falls, and unless I missed something since I was watching the footage on YouTube, the ropes looked intact during the third fall. So unless the Rockers were supposed to win in two straight falls... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 They were just pulling something out of their ass to cover for chaging their mind and airing the title change. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 The rope broke during the second fall, but only on one side. The other three sides still had all the ropes, but the top rope was sagging. Between the second and third falls they replaced the ropes. It made the "official ruling" seem pretty weak in retrospect, but then since no one at the time saw the match it was a pretty unique way of getting around not acknowledging the title switch. It's also funny to hear the chatter in the ring since there's no commentary. Shawn calls spots loud as hell, and Anvil has a "GODDAMMIT! SONOFABITCH!" when the rope snaps. Ditto when Bret slides into the corner to do his trademark chest first bump to make sure he only hits the bottom two turnbuckles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 I'm pretty sure that was all because they were going to fire Jim Neidhart and then changed their minds about it, or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Also because the show was changed from a 90 minute Saturday Night's Main Event to a 60 minute prime time Main Event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 The way I heard it was Anvil put his notice in (where was he going to go in 1990?) then changed his mind between the time of the taping and when the show was set to air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 Yeah, the SNME/ME contraction is a forgotten aspect of it. Still, if they had not decided to keep Anvil, they could have worked something into the show where it was a "standby match", they have to go off the air, and it will be shown on one of the weekend shows or on Prime Time. Or of course easily retaped in the next set of TV tapings, which due to Survivors was only a week away from when Meltzer reported it - 11/19/90 in Rochester (Superstars) and 11/20/90 in Syracuse (Challenge). Those started airing 12/08/90 and 12/09/90, which isn't terribly far after the original planned air date of 11/23/90 on NBC. The 12/15/90 Superstars had the IC title change back to Hennig from Kerry, so they could have taped a tag title change to air the week before, either on Challenge (highlights which would also air the next week on Superstars) or on Superstars (to have a storyline of title changes on back-to-back shows). What strange is that they didn't really have much of interest going on with either of the teams through that taping and the next. They could easily have rematched it on the Rumble rather than the Rockers-Orient Express match, which was given 19 minutes. The Nastys program for the tag title match at Mania didn't start until the 01/28/91 tapings and aired on the 02/16/91 Superstars (the tag team battle royal for the title shot). Anyway... How long is the match on the DVD? Meltzer wrote that it was a long match. Is it edited up? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 The way I heard it was Anvil put his notice in (where was he going to go in 1990?) then changed his mind between the time of the taping and when the show was set to air. Actually, the WWF gave Anvil notice that he was going to be let go. The WWF was cutting back on running three shows a night to just two. That meant a chunk of the roster was going to be let go. Not really 1/3rd of the roster, since the "C" shows tended to have a smaller card and go into small towns. But a number of guys. Anvil was one of them. The WWF changed their minds on parts of the program, and Anvil was kept. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 I didn't time it, but it was a decent length. The only thing that seemed edited is when the ring guys came out to fix the ropes. In fact, it seems to be the unpolished raw feed from the taping - no commentary and a lot of background noises that would have been muted or mixed out in a finished product. Not only the ring chatter/obvious spot calling mentioned before, but at some point you can hear what sounds like German commentary in the background. It seems kind of odd they were going to fire Anvil, you'd think there was a lot of guys you'd fire in 1990 WWF before you got to him. Then again, it's not like he was anything without Bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 As Bret told the story (in his RF shoot, iirc), the WWF was going to break up the Hart Foundation, fire Neidhart and give Bret a singles push. He said that he thought Neidhart broke the turnbuckle on purpose in that match, so that the planned title switch would be ruined and they'd keep the belts and also Jim's job longer. Which is, oddly, exactly what happened. A bit of a conspiracy theory, but an amusing one. As jdw pointed out, I've never understood why they completely gave up on the Rockers title reign and never even tried to tape this match again after the first one was derailed by a freak accident. Must've been one of those "WWE fires Boogeyman one week, WWE rehires Boogeyman next week" weird incidents where we never get the exact story about what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Just a theory, but perhaps WWE found out at that point they could get their hands on the Nasty Boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHawk Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 The match is uncut (and almost half an hour, I believe about 28 minutes of bell-to-bell time not including entrances and rest periods. Seems like it would have had to have been edited for SNME anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Anyone notice how pissed Bret was during the Rockers/Harts match? He drops several F bombs in guise of arguing with the referee (again since there is no commentary it's quite obvious what he's saying) In retrospect, with Bret being a perfectionist about his in ring stuff, it's not too hard to figure out that he was upset about how the match was coming off. I don't understand as I think the match is fine, bordering on great. And yes there is no way that match could have been aired in full on SNME. It would have been edited significantly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 In his book, Bret talks about how pissed off he was at the ref, Freddie Sparta. Sparta had no idea that the protocol was to stop the match so they could fix the rope, all of which would be edited out seamlessly in post-production. Bret, who was calling the match, was unable to get Sparta's attention to let him know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.