The interesting Dave Meltzer posts thread

[Dan]

And this "when AAA came to this country and did business, you know that so many people wanted to ignore it on the guise it was not pro wrestling." He really needs better sources if they can't even understand what pro wrestling is.

I don't know how much of this was sources and how much was readership. I never got the sense that his sources were upset with hislucha coverage, and knowing the nature of the industry I imagine his sources are flattered by thinking that what they are doing is somehow linked to MMA. Objections came from readers. The response to his lucha coverage in the early 90s from his readership was negative. Maybe not largely negative maybe just the negative was more vocal. But you read those issue in like 93/94 and you really get a sense that he was forced to spend more time having to come up with new defensive explanations for lucha coverage than he spent actually getting lucha sources.

 

Read the first page in this thread. Dave says Stan Hansen thought Japanese women's wrestling ain't pro wrestling. Cornette doesn't think garbage is. And unnamed people, apparently in wrestling thought AAA shouldn't count.

[tomk]

Yeah I read that post.

 

The point is that I think the resistance to his coverage of AAA was largely reader resistance. At the time it read like reader resistance. I'm sure he had sources who didn't like the comparison to lucha. But the bulk of complaints felt like they were comig from readers.

 

I doubt the resistance to shoot stuff is coming from inside the industry. Pro-wrestlers and folks in pro-wrestling find the "MMA is pro-wrestling" to be flattering. Heyman, and Ross both seemed to be among the people who pimped the HBO promotion of De La Hoya-Mayweather as being "pro-wrestling". I get no sense that there is anyone in the "biz" who complains about the MMA coverage.

 

He may cite people in the industry to make his point, but the resistance was from the readership.

[jdw]

I don't recall much resistance from his readers to Lucha coverage in the early to mid 90s. Certainly nothing remotely close to his coverage of UFC when it started.

 

Dave's readership was less polarized than say RSP-W in the 90s when you had WWF Fans, WCW Fans and ECW Fans rooting for their favorite promtion while crapping on the "enemies". While one might think that beause Scherer became the biggest ECW House Organ online that he was always and ECW Fan. He actually was one of the guys at the cutting edge of Lucha watching, getting it earlier than most and contributing his ratings to Sims' Lucha Libre Weekly.

 

The readership had its "favorites", but you'd be surprised how open it was to what people were pimping as "good wrestling". They didn't always end up digging it, but they usually were willing to give it a look if it was easy enough to get a hold of (or attend), and rarely begrudged that it was covered. Frankly, they were glad there was a WON to cover wrestling period.

 

The coverage of Lucha really didn't eat up that much space at all. Weekly Lucha TV didn't even rate the recaps that New Japan, All Japan and AJW got. He would cover the shows he went to, but really no different from covering the SMW and ECW shows he would go to. The Lucha/Mexico/AAA section(s) of the WON weren't any longer than the ones for ECW and SMW, nor Memphis when it had been more viable. The last time I subbed, TNA and ROH had vastly more space on a weekly basis than Mexico ever got.

 

There were fans who didn't care for it, but the space it ate up really didn't matter. The "debate" in the WON over it had long since been lost when Dave covered Japan. And frankly even that debate never really was all that big since Japan was one of the various tape trading elements that the WON grew out of in being launched.

 

The resistance was more from people in the business who didn't think Lucha was wrestling, and who didn't take kindly to how lucha was drawing in California.

 

But even that was *nothing* compared to the resistance to UFC coverage.

 

 

John

[Bix]

Discovering lucha superfan Scherer in the old Sims newsletters scared me. He wrote like a different human being.

[jdw]

In one of the Lariats or Chairshots (prior to the Lariat), Scherer made the comment that Lucha was "Dave's" (i.e. Meltzer's) while ECW was "ours". It was along the lines of Meltzer loved Japan and Lucha because he was in the cutting edge of hardcore fans of "discovering" and pushing them, while he knocked ECW because it wasn't something that he discovered - others did, like Scherer.

 

Wish I could find it, since I don't do justice to the comment.

 

Anyway... yeah, Scherer was one of the big early Lucha fans. The SoCal gang around Kurt Brown and Dan Farren (the two seemed to be way ahead of the curve compared to everyone), then Steve Sims in IL, Jesse Money in Texas and Scherer back in NJ when it started getting available on the tube.

 

John

[Bix]

Scherer actually had a C-Band dish that he used to get the Mexican feeds of AAA, EMLL, & UWA from. Using 2 VCRs, he taped two originals: One for himself and one for Jeff Lynch (while originals, they were prone to satellite sparkly interference due to the signal before far off). Apparently there was a better quality source in Florida (farther south = closer signal to Mexico) but I dunno if any of his stuff is floating around.

[jdw]

I don't know when Scherer started watching it - before it started getting run in the WON (about 1990), or after. Jesse was in Texas, and I don't recall if he got it off the dish or simply in an across the border due to a powerful transmitter. Also don't recall how much if any he taped, and kept. If he did keep it, I suspect it's long gone since he and his wife moved around the time he stopped writing much on RSP-W.

 

John

[Bix]

From the F4W/WON forums, but I might as well put it in this thread...

 

From a "Vince's delusions" thread:

 

Dave on the whole Ted Turner obsession including some stuff I don't think he's mentioned before:

Vince, in his mind, made Ted Turner his mortal enemy in 1988 because he did such a great job in 1987 of ruining Jim Crockett Promotions. He felt he beat them and they deserved to go away like everyone else, and it was cheating that Ted bought them when he had manipulated them down for the count.

 

Plus, he was mad in 1986 when he was the only game with national television and bought the contract to Ted's TBS wrestling, and then Ted put both Ole Anderson and Bill Watts' promotions on his station as well without either having to spend money to buy in. Worse, Watts, in a worse time slot, beat Vince's ratings and Ted wanted to kick Vince off the station even though Vince spent $750,000 to buy the time slot.

 

Vince thought it was unfair that Ted supported the money losing company and didn't fold them in the early 90s. Then, when the company started making money, it was unfair because they used the stars he created to do so.

Someone replied:

I also think Vince needed to think Ted Turner was out to get him for him to become motivated enough to battle WCW.

 

I don't think Eric Bischoff, or WCW itself was enough for him.

To which Dave replied:

He was battling everyone in wrestling starting when he quit the NWA in 1983. He needed no motivation to fight people when in most cases, he started almost every fight with people a whole lot lower on the totem poll than Eric Bischoff.

[Sean Liska]

Yeah, I would say that Vince needed to believe that Ted was out to get him because it was too humbling to believe he was getting his butt kicked for a while by Verne Gagne's gofer.

[Ronnie]

Considering the widespread perception (reinforced by Flair himself) that he spent more than he made and has nothing left, I was surprised by this post on the F4W board:

 

I don't mean to crush anybody's fun, but Flair has millions in retirement accounts, and if no major deals he's working on come in this year he'll still have earned in the $1.5 million range for this year. If big deals come in, he'll be well above that. We should all be so broke.

 

His wife didn't leave him. But his daughter was tasered.

 

Carry on.

[jdw]

Considering the widespread perception (reinforced by Flair himself) that he spent more than he made and has nothing left, I was surprised by this post on the F4W board:

 

I don't mean to crush anybody's fun, but Flair has millions in retirement accounts, and if no major deals he's working on come in this year he'll still have earned in the $1.5 million range for this year. If big deals come in, he'll be well above that. We should all be so broke.

Yeah, Dave's comments in the past few months about Flair's millions in retirement accounts have been talked about before. No one is quite sure where they're coming from, and most are scratching their head given so much being written in the past about Ric being headed for the poor house and needing Uncle Vinces paychecks.

 

They don't entirely add up.

 

 

John

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

For anyone familiar with THE BOARD, I thought you might get a kick out of this.

 

 

 

Who would have thought Dave Meltzer would be the one to put Ichiban in his place? Not I.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

From F4W, on the Austin/Hogan bigger draw debate:

 

If you ask anyone who was in WWE will access to all the numbers, from Vince on down, from both eras, and ask who was the biggest draw, everyone will replay Austin and without hesitation, because he sold more tickets, sold more merch, sold more PPVs. Granted, there are huge differences in eras that mitigate those things, but...Austin beat Hogan in every financial category comparing peaks. Hogan did headline more successful shows because of far greater longevity. At his peak, Austin was bigger. For longevity, Hogan was.

 

2) Austin started his run when WWE was deep in debt, loans out, they had to remove water coolers from the office and wrestling was never colder. Hogan's run started in 1984, when the pro wrestling industry on a national basis was already at peak levels. U.S. attendance in 1983, year before Hogan's run, was 13 million. U.S. attendance in 1996, year before Austin's run, was well under 2 million.

 

3) Austin got there with TV deals in place, but when wrestling ratings were rock bottom. Hogan got there when most major cities were doing far bigger ratings for wrestling than any time since. Ratings in most cities fell during the Hogan peak, as did the national cable numbers. Not his fault, just a changing environment. But Austin's numbers increased at a time when ratings across the board were declining for almost every other sport.

 

4) Austin did work when PPV was more established, but also worked in an environment with 35 PPVs per year (WWE, WCW, TNA & UFC). When Hogan broke into PPV, it was a novelty, WWE had a monopoly and there were only a few shows of the year, and far better promoted

 

5) Austin got there when merchandise division was more established. That is true.

 

6) Hogan's peak on NBC did draw more than Austin's peak rating on USA. Well, duh? But Hogan's ratings on cable were 3's and Austin's were double that even though there was far more cable competitition and individual cable network ratings were much smaller. Hogan's peak numbers were bigger, Austin's weekly numbers dwarfed Hogan's, even though Austin appeared on TV every week and Hogan's TV appearances were rare and promoted as special.

 

7) Hogan did not draw shitloads more people. Hogan's best feuds averaged 8,000 to 10,000 paid aside from Orndorff. Austin at his peak averaged 14,000 paid, and did mostly sellouts. Plus, at Austin's peak, because of the Raw set, he was playing in arenas where capacity was cut back 30% for the biggest show of the week and still, on average, greatly outdrew Hogan at triple the ticket prices. And, the house shows during the Hogan run were far better promoted. The company had specialized local television and did specialized local interviews and did more advertising because house shows were the prime revenue source and considered the most important thing. During the Austin era, house shows were considered a distant No. 3 in priority. No more local market television or localized interviews. Plus, in the Hogan era, everything on television was geared toward buying house show tickets and in the Austin era, the house shows were barely acknowledged on TV that they even existed.

What part of Austin drew more at his peak and Hogan drew longer is so difficult to comprehend?

 

I'm not saying who was a bigger draw because it's apples to oranges. And arguing Piper & Andre vs. Rock & HHH for support only makes things more confusing.

 

If John Cena sells more merchandise than Hogan or Austin, then he is a bigger merchandise seller. If he sells more tickets to live shows and PPV orders, then he is a bigger draw. Is that difficult?

 

WCW started rebounding before Hogan's heel turn, but the NWO angle did spark a huge increase in business, and eventually also resulted in a dead company. Arguing without Hogan's heel turn, there would be no Austin is really tough to prove and it doesn't matter.

 

If there was no Superstar Graham, there is no Hogan. Does that make Superstar a bigger draw? Only in terms of consistently selling tickets in Madison Square Garden, but overall, no way. There isn't even logic in that.

 

If there is no Vince Sr., there is no Vince Jr., does that make Vince Sr. actually the better promoter? Again, no logic.

 

What do heel Hogan's ratings have to do with this argument. If you are arguing heel Hogan was a bigger draw then Austin in the late 90s, that's a point few will agree with because that's apples to apples and the numbers are there. Hogan of the 80s at least was a phenomenon for his time.

 

When it comes to cable ratings for Hogan's era and Austin's era, you don't understand ratings. In Hogan's era, how many TV channels were there if you had cable? Maybe 20. With Austin, what, maybe 150? A cable rating is based on the percentage of people whose home gets the station are watching. Cable ratings in general were significantly higher during the 80s because there were fewer stations. When Georgia Championship Wrestling in 1981 averaged a 6.4 rating (far bigger than the 3.5 to 4.0 numbers during the year Hogan was the star of the show in 84-85 when Watts' show was put on in a worse time slot and averaged a 5.3 on the same station), that meant 6.6 percent of the 20 million homes let's say that had cable. And while 6.4 was the top rated weekly show on cable at the time, Andy Griffith reruns did 3.5 because there were fewer stations and fewer options. When it comes to cable ratings comparison just using ratings themselves, Hogan had such a gigantic advantage both from being used so rarely instead of weekly, and less competition.

 

When you talk about DX, Rock, etc., of course all are a factor, just as Hogan had Savage, Piper, Andre, Slaughter, etc.

 

Saying everyone came to see Hogan at house shows is misleading. In California in 1984, Andre & Piper drew equal to Hogan. Andre drew bigger in Los Angeles. I remember talking with someone in the office after an LA show and they remarked how the people just went crazy when Hogan came out, yet when Andre comes, we sell more tickets. Of course, Hogan had more legs as a draw then Andre and Piper did. But also, Hogan sucked as a program draw. He'd draw big with someone the first time, but second and third meetings were often disappointing, which is why they would often put Hogan in secondary markets on the night of a big arena like MSG or Chicago, because the feeling was Hogan needed to be booked like Andre, a few times a year, because he wasn't Bruno whose gates went up for rematches. And when Austin was hurt, business was so hot that Rock drew just as good, but Austin on PPV was much bigger than Rock.

 

All eras are different anyway.

 

Piper drew slightly bigger in Northern California (because a Hogan vs. Jesse feud that never happened but was advertised and Hogan ended up going against other guys although fans who bought tickets didn't know it, stiffed so bad and Piper vs. Snuka and Tonga Kid--another big draw I didn't mention--was such a hot program that year).

 

Hogan had plenty of periods he didn't draw well. Warrior started outdrawing Hogan after the Zahorian trial but he also had no legs. Vince benched Hogan in 1992. When Hogan came back in 1993, he didn't draw well and quit himself.

 

It was never ONLY Hogan. He was the top star just as Austin was. Each was the most valuable of their eras. I do think Hogan singularly in the 80s was more valuable in this sense. Without Hogan in 1985, the promotional war would have been more of a struggle and Vince may have not won. Without Austin, while the promotional war would have been more of a struggle, in the end, Vince would have won no matter what because WCW killed itself as opposed to the 80s when Vince killed his opposition.

 

There are a million mitigating things.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I think if TNA produced a product that people wanted to see, they could be profitable running house shows every weekend, return to the markets and draw the same or bigger crowds, and do PPV shows that would draw 2.5% of their viewers. Considering they were doing considerably more PPV buys when on Fox Sports Net with 250,000 viewers, that tells you if they produced better quality shows and built them up in a way people wanted to buy them and enjoyed them and felt they were can't miss, the potential is there.

 

TNA wasn't losing money before the economy went down but there was no sign they were making much either, and the last few months they've cut back on bringing people in (not just talking wrestlers they don't use but people who help with the show and office people) for tapings and a lot of good ideas were nixed because of money being tight. They also eliminated the day off on road PPVs as a cost saving plus are doing fewer PPV shows on the road because their product is so popular they can't sell many tickets for the PPV events so make out better staying in Orlando and allowing people in free, even though everyone in the company readily admits it makes the PPVs seem minor league and hurts growth of the genre.

 

It's not an either/or. If they produced better television, by this point the ratings would be a lot higher. But they are in a position where Dixie, who knows nothing about wrestling, doesn't know any better, and they have no confidence in their abilities to make stars, so they put TV shows based around Kurt Angle, Mick Foley and Sting and they are big enough stars from the past that people will watch them feud for free. Maybe more will pay to see them than usual as well in the next two months.

 

The fact they have the stars they have, and can't do profitable house show business unless they go to mid-level and small-level cities like Spencer, IA, where the costs are low and no other wrestling comes to town, spekas volumes. And then they can only do it once a year. They came to New York, drew well once, and the second time, did worse than ROH with no TV and no stars. They can bring all their stars to Booker T's home town or to Atlanta where Sting has a legacy and still can't sell many tickets, and eventually do most of their PPVs giving tickets for free should tell you they are hardly maximizing their potential as an entertainment company.

 

WCW had that mentality of relying on ready-made stars thinking it lasts forever, and didn't build new stars because Eric always believed as long as he had Hogan, everything would be fine. It worked for a few years but the shelf life was short.

 

I don't know the number for 2008, but they made $1 million on international TV deals in 2007. It's probably up in 2008, but probably also not a lot. It's money, but it's 7% of total income and not going to save the company. They are only around because of Spike TV, so they are dependent completely on Spike not having any financial problems with the economy hurting ad sales. WWE has taken a major merchandise hit so one would expect TNA is doing so as well, and TNA was counting on videogame money that isn't going to materialize. And when push comes to shove and Spike has to decide between the UFC deal that is $33 million per year and wrestling if their budget is cut, no matter what the ratings of the two, the UFC is a prestige product in their eyes and more important to the station. UFC will have multiple suitors almost for sure when the deal is up. If TNA can't get multiple suitors, it doesn't matter its ratings, it won't get any increase because there is no need to increase. That's if Spike stays healthy. If Spike doesn't stay healthy, TNA's entire existence is at their mercy. But TNA will also continue to exist as long as Spike is healthy, because Spike helps pay the big salaries.

 

But you could say the same thing about UFC. They could probably cut back on live shows and run a streamlined company for $33 million per year off the Spike money if PPVs were break-even or stop running PPVs if they are money losers. Instead, they were significantly more profitable than WWE was last year because they ran a far more effective company in a business that it is significantly tougher to be successful in than the wrestling business.

 

Spike is happy with the ratings, but the idea that what they are doing now is maximizing ratings is a joke when you see that WWE with no thought and just throwing C team wrestlers out beat them most weeks on Sci-Fi, a network unlike Spike which is not really conducive to drawing a wrestling audience.

 

If they had a well rounded business, they would be building new stars who are building legacies now instead of relying on people who go on TV and talk about their glory days when they used to wrestle Shawn Michaels, HHH and Randy Orton, the real stars. And if, like WWE with MyNetwork, if their key outlet goes down, it wouldn't threaten the existence of the business.

[sek69]

Considering the widespread perception (reinforced by Flair himself) that he spent more than he made and has nothing left, I was surprised by this post on the F4W board:

 

I don't mean to crush anybody's fun, but Flair has millions in retirement accounts, and if no major deals he's working on come in this year he'll still have earned in the $1.5 million range for this year. If big deals come in, he'll be well above that. We should all be so broke.

Yeah, Dave's comments in the past few months about Flair's millions in retirement accounts have been talked about before. No one is quite sure where they're coming from, and most are scratching their head given so much being written in the past about Ric being headed for the poor house and needing Uncle Vinces paychecks.

 

They don't entirely add up.

 

 

John

 

 

I don't get it either. Dave was also the one who mentioned Vince's personal loan to Flair being the thing keeping him afloat, not to mention that Flair's marriage ending because his wife stating "he couldn't stop being Ric Flair" which sure seemed to imply she left him.

 

So I guess somehow despite having a reputation of spending money like water Ric somehow secretly squirreled away millions and managed to work Vince into giving him a huge personal loan? That doesn't seem right....

[rovert]

Considering the widespread perception (reinforced by Flair himself) that he spent more than he made and has nothing left, I was surprised by this post on the F4W board:

 

I don't mean to crush anybody's fun, but Flair has millions in retirement accounts, and if no major deals he's working on come in this year he'll still have earned in the $1.5 million range for this year. If big deals come in, he'll be well above that. We should all be so broke.

Yeah, Dave's comments in the past few months about Flair's millions in retirement accounts have been talked about before. No one is quite sure where they're coming from, and most are scratching their head given so much being written in the past about Ric being headed for the poor house and needing Uncle Vinces paychecks.

 

They don't entirely add up.

 

 

John

 

I don't get it either. Dave was also the one who mentioned Vince's personal loan to Flair being the thing keeping him afloat, not to mention that Flair's marriage ending because his wife stating "he couldn't stop being Ric Flair" which sure seemed to imply she left him.

 

So I guess somehow despite having a reputation of spending money like water Ric somehow secretly squirreled away millions and managed to work Vince into giving him a huge personal loan? That doesn't seem right....

 

Unless Ric was completely about adamant keeping a hold of his pension or the terms of his pension heavily penalises him if he touches it before it matures. But still it is surprising he still has a healthy pension after all those divorces. Those account could be off shore protected ones too. How knows?

[sek69]

Since when do wrestlers get pensions?

[rovert]

Since when do wrestlers get pensions?

okay retirement plan then

[Bix]

Also, if he has millions of dollars in retirement accounts and has been making so much easy money the last several months with appearances, why does he still owe Vince the last $100,000 of his loan?

[Loss]

Off topic, but re: Flair -- I love the tidbit in a recent Observer that Flair is privately concerned about the Jericho angle because he doesn't feel they would put Hogan in the same situation where he's merely one of a cast of many legends. Ridiculous.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

If Flair was so concerned about not being considered "just another guy" he shouldn't have spent the last years of his career working the openers on PPV against Shelton Benjamin and Carlito.

[kjh]

Sometimes I think Meltzer is too close to Flair to be able to separate the fact from the fiction. At the end of the day he's still a worker.

[sek69]

Off topic, but re: Flair -- I love the tidbit in a recent Observer that Flair is privately concerned about the Jericho angle because he doesn't feel they would put Hogan in the same situation where he's merely one of a cast of many legends. Ridiculous.

 

The difference is that Hogan would never allow himself to be one of a cast of many, regardless if WWE wanted to do it or not.

[Tim Evans]

He almost did in 2003 with Mr. America working with Zack Gowen.

[sek69]

He almost did in 2003 with Mr. America working with Zack Gowen.

 

....and the moment he realized the angle was going to be to the benefit of someone else he sure got the fuck out of Dodge.

 

 

You have to hand it to him though, other than maybe Nash I can't think of anyone in wrestling so skilled at making sure they are always the focus of attention. Flair was always about making others look good, which was great for having ***** matches, but that doesn't matter when you're having to work the sheets to convince people you're not broke.