Loss Posted July 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Steamboat/Slater vs Jumbo/Baba from 12/05/80 in All Japan was a good match. Steamboat definitely had strengths at this stage of his career. He hadn't fully developed into a great wrestler just yet, but Jumbo is really good at reigning him by forcing him to work the mat. The matwork throughout this entire match with every pairing -- Steamboat/Jumbo, Baba/Steamboat, Baba/Slater, Jumbo/Slater -- is very solid. The match is fun early, but doesn't really seem to be going anywhere for a while, until Steamboat comes in and starts using his karate offense on Jumbo. I get a kick out of Steamboat working the apron like he's in Greensboro and the crowd following his lead. I may be overrating this, because this is more just a fun series of mini-matches with every pairing instead of an actual tag match. But I really liked the pairings. This was my first time to see that match. I had seen Jumbo/Steamboat before, and my opinion really didn't change much. Really solid match, but don't get too excited. I'd like to see Jumbo and Steamboat in a shorter, more fast-paced match where Steamboat could really show off his charisma. He was good on the mat, but his bigger strength was in selling and quick bursts of offense, even then. It's fun to watch the Steamboat comp and see Steamboat evolve. There's a definite improvement in the late 1980 stuff compared to the film footage, and we all know he got even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 I just watched Steamboat/Onita vs High Flyers from 6/8/82 in All Japan. Really good high workrate sprint. It's hurt by having neither team really heel it up all that much, but it's still really good action. I haven't seen much of Brunzell and Gagne as a team, but I really like the little I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Well, Hansen/Brody vs Steamboat/Youngblood was action-packed, but was mostly Brody no-selling and stiffing babyfaces for no reason. I liked the match when Hansen was in, but Brody dragged it down for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 I caught all the post-draft Smackdowns on Hulu. Thoughts on some of the matches: Edge vs John Morrison (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 06/19/09) - This is the best Edge performance I've ever seen, working as the vet against the young guy climbing the ladder. This dynamic isn't one you see very often in WWE, and often times, when it's attempted, it's done in a way to bury the younger guy, but this was really, really good. Edge's facial expressions of realizing this match is going to be tougher than he originally thought are great, and Morrison loses, but comes out looking much better than he did going in. I think I've said before experienced guy vs younger guy with the younger guy getting lots of close calls but ultimately losing is probably my favorite type of match, so this had that advantage already. Edge has this weird thing where he sometimes starts a move without finishing it, if that makes sense. I don't know how else to explain it, other than for working a style where it's noted the heels control their own bumps, Edge will often do a standard heel spot like missing a dive of some kind, but then not really bump off of it. So this wasn't a perfect match, but the layout of it was fantastic. C.M. Punk vs John Morrison (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 06/26/09) - I think an easy talking point for Punk detractors (and maybe Morrison detractors too, for that matter) has always been that he had so many matches against Morrison in ECW and so few stood out, with many just not being very good. So when I heard this match was good, I had doubts, because I just remembered two guys who were matched up so many times and couldn't quite pull off a good match. This was a great match. Normally, guys come into WWE and lose confidence, so there were things you saw in them outside the company, but they have been browbeaten and told they're doing everything wrong so they lose whatever spark they once had. Not at all the case here. In fact, both guys really look confident and very comfortable working the style in a long match. I think another easy talking point against Punk was always that he had the chance to do such long matches on the indies he wouldn't have a chance to do in WWE. But he's really mastered sub-15 minute TV matches and is quite good. It's interesting that Morrison is in my two favorite matches post-draft. I think in both cases, that's due to him being guided by a superior wrestler, but that's hardly a knock against Morrison and shouldn't be taken that way. Edge vs Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 06/05/09) - Getting a new batch of opponents, and getting away from the endless Vickie Guerrero skits (outside the ring stuff is not Edge's strong point at all) has been good for him, because I've never really been a huge fan of his, but he has looked excellent in all of these matches. Rey obviously is a world class opponent, which is a big part of it. Chris Jericho vs Rey Misterio Jr. (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 07/10/09) - Just aired last night. I liked this match a lot. There are other matches I think that have been better post-draft, but this is another really strong match. Jericho, more than anyone, understands how to work with Rey. That said, as good as Jericho is right now, he's really starting to show his age, and while he kept up and even set the pace at many points in this match, he did seem pretty winded, which I guess is understandable for the style. I made a comment in the Jericho thread recently that one thing I like about him is that he wrestles the style of his opponent. With that in mind, there are things like the Atlantis torture rack that he does really well that he should really add to his normal arsenal and start using against opponents other than Rey. Rey was phenomenal, and I really loved the land-on-your-feet spot in both this and the Edge match that he did when he was thrown out. He's having a fantastic year, which is really good to see since he was absent so much of 2008. I really want to see their RAW match and their other PPV matches now. Edge vs Jeff Hardy (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 05/22/09) - Another really good Edge match. This was the first of the excellent Edge matches, and I initially attributed it to working a guy who he has feuded with on and off now for ten years. That I'm sure is part of it, but Edge was looking better than he ever had to me prior to the injury. Lots of other good matches, with the big standouts being the Jericho/Punk match from the 5/22 Smackdown, which is another good example of Punk really becoming awesome at short TV matches, and Edge/Jericho from the 5/15 Smackdown, which is kind of a battle of assholes. I would put this match ahead of the Savage/Roberts SNME match for heel versus heel, just because neither guy tried to play defacto face, which was awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I saw that Morrison/Bourne from ECW on 4/14 was getting a lot of praise. It was an okay match, but I didn't love it. It felt like dumbed down Rey Misterio vs Dean Malenko, in the sense that Morrison was forcing Bourne to the ground in long holds for most of the match for some reason. If the matches I've watched so far are any indication, John Morrison is a guy who is able to be carried to an excellent match, but isn't seasoned enough yet to lead one on his own. But he'll get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Steamboat/Tenryu from 2/23/84 is a strong match, probably the first really great Steamboat singles match I've seen on this comp. I really like the matwork and especially the escapes. Tenryu gets the upper hand in pretty much every exchange and also gets the win in the end. For someone who's used to seeing Steamboat in the babyface role getting the upper hand on headlocks and headscissors-type stuff, it was weird to see him on the losing end of the exchanges. I really liked Steamboat trying to stand on his head to get out of the headscissors, and rushing as fast as he could to put on a headlock, only to end up right back in the move. I also liked Steamboat's desperation figure four because he realized he wasn't winning when he was wrestling Tenryu that close up. Good stuff, probably one of the better matches of '84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Pretty much everything that can be said about Steamboat/Tully from Starrcade '84 has been said at some point, so I won't go into it, except to agree that yes, it's a really awesome match that I probably enjoyed watching more this time around than I ever have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Steamboat/Santana vs Dream Team really got slept on in the DVDVR poll. Terrific tag team sprint with a great opening, some fun sequences, a hot crowd, and a clean submission finish. It seems like this should have finished much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Looks like you're watching a lot of the same stuff I am from Will's Steamboat comp. I watched the Tenryu match a couple weeks ago and thought it was pretty great. I don't remember too much about now, although I recall thinking it really escalated nicely. Did you watch the Steamboat & Youngblood/Briscoes stuff on the same disc? I thought the two TV matches were really fun, and while I didn't like the Starrcade match as much as I had remembered, I thought that was pretty good, too. Edge v Morrison from 6/19 is a match I enjoyed a lot. I've seen very, very little WWE from this year - or any promotion from this year for that matter - but I managed to catch that episode of Smackdown! and I really dug that match. I actually preferred the Punk/Rey match from later in the show, but I want to check both out again at some point. I missed the first five minutes of the Edge match anyway. Looks like I should probably check out the Punk/Morrison match from 6/26, too. For all the matches they've had together, I honestly don't think I've seen an entire match between the two, which is pretty surprising. Have you seen the Rey/Jericho match from the Bash, btw? I loved it and would easily make my top 5 WWE matches I've seen this year (which, in fairness, isn't a whole lot, but still). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I really liked Savage/Steamboat from Philly on 11/8/86 a lot, mainly because it was Steamboat wrestling more like the Steamboat of Mid Atlantic/NWA days than the corny headband/karate stuff he did in the WWF. Nice pacing and good build which would have been better with 5 more minutes and probably great with 10 more minutes. But a good way to prelude the feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Looks like you're watching a lot of the same stuff I am from Will's Steamboat comp. I watched the Tenryu match a couple weeks ago and thought it was pretty great. I don't remember too much about now, although I recall thinking it really escalated nicely. Did you watch the Steamboat & Youngblood/Briscoes stuff on the same disc? I thought the two TV matches were really fun, and while I didn't like the Starrcade match as much as I had remembered, I thought that was pretty good, too. I really liked the TV matches a lot, much better than the Starrcade match. I tried to locate the date and couldn't though, which is why I didn't list it here. Edge v Morrison from 6/19 is a match I enjoyed a lot. I've seen very, very little WWE from this year - or any promotion from this year for that matter - but I managed to catch that episode of Smackdown! and I really dug that match. I actually preferred the Punk/Rey match from later in the show, but I want to check both out again at some point. I missed the first five minutes of the Edge match anyway. Looks like I should probably check out the Punk/Morrison match from 6/26, too. For all the matches they've had together, I honestly don't think I've seen an entire match between the two, which is pretty surprising. Have you seen the Rey/Jericho match from the Bash, btw? I loved it and would easily make my top 5 WWE matches I've seen this year (which, in fairness, isn't a whole lot, but still). Haven't seen any WWE PPV matches for 2009 yet, unfortunately, but Edge/Morrison was surprisingly great. As an FYI, Hulu has complete episodes of TV shows up in perfect quality, usually they keep at least the last 10-11 full episodes posted, sometimes more. That's where I watched all of this. So, if you miss something or hear about something that sounds like something you'd want to see, this is the easiest way to see it quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I've actually never heard of Hulu before, but I want to try and catch up with a lot of the stuff I've missed, so I'll definitely use this in future. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Savage/Steamboat from Toronto on 2/15/87 is AWESOME. They basically worked the fast-paced two count sequences from Mania verbatim, but slowed it down and mixed in tons of brawling and even a little blood. Really awesome match, now I want to re-watch Wrestlemania III to see if it changes my opinion. This is a match that I would rank top 2 or 3 of the 80s for the WWF, probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Savage/Steamboat from Toronto on 2/15/87 is AWESOME. They basically worked the fast-paced two count sequences from Mania verbatim, but slowed it down and mixed in tons of brawling and even a little blood. Really awesome match, now I want to re-watch Wrestlemania III to see if it changes my opinion. This is a match that I would rank top 2 or 3 of the 80s for the WWF, probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I love the Toronto match. I've never been a big fan of the Wrestlemania match, but the Toronto effort is my favourite Savage/Steamboat match, and one of my favourite Savage matches, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I wanted to rewatch the Savage/Steamboat match from Wrestlemania III after watching all the matches that led to it again in order. I have not been a big fan of the match in the past, and have criticized it for Steamboat not really seeming all that angry about having his larynx crushed, even though the wrestling was admittedly really good. But jdw was right in this case -- seeing the Toronto match really provides a missing piece of the puzzle, and gives you that angry Steamboat thing you really want to see. He had come after Savage full of piss and vinegar before, and hadn't won the title. This was being pushed as his last chance in pre-match promos, so he had to win or he probably wouldn't get another shot. So he had to keep his cool. I still don't think this is among the best matches of all time, but I do consider it a great match now. Yet another case that it always helps to watch stuff in context. I was pretty wrong about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I saw the Flair/Steamboat match from Philly for the first time. Just like all the rest of their matches, really great, even though I didn't care for the overbooked crap at the finish with Flair getting a pin and Luger and Barry Windham running in. The match itself was pretty choice though, especially Steamboat destroying Flair's leg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Stepping away from the Flair/Steamboat matches for a few years like I have has really helped freshen them up. I'm still kind of weary of watching Wrestle War '89 again, but I'm looking forward to it now after rewatching the Clash match. I don't think anyone has ever said it wasn't a great match, but I would say because the past few years have seen so much new stuff get unearthed, everyone has been more focused on that instead of things they've seen a million times. So saying it may be boring to say it, but it is true that the Clash match between Flair and Steamboat is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Edge vs John Morrison (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 06/19/09) - This is the best Edge performance I've ever seen, working as the vet against the young guy climbing the ladder. This dynamic isn't one you see very often in WWE, and often times, when it's attempted, it's done in a way to bury the younger guy, but this was really, really good. Edge's facial expressions of realizing this match is going to be tougher than he originally thought are great, and Morrison loses, but comes out looking much better than he did going in. I think I've said before experienced guy vs younger guy with the younger guy getting lots of close calls but ultimately losing is probably my favorite type of match, so this had that advantage already. Edge has this weird thing where he sometimes starts a move without finishing it, if that makes sense. I don't know how else to explain it, other than for working a style where it's noted the heels control their own bumps, Edge will often do a standard heel spot like missing a dive of some kind, but then not really bump off of it. So this wasn't a perfect match, but the layout of it was fantastic. Watched this earlier, and I liked it even more than I did when I saw it originally. Agreed on Edge being pretty awesome in it. C.M. Punk vs John Morrison (WWE Friday Night SmackDown! 06/26/09) - I think an easy talking point for Punk detractors (and maybe Morrison detractors too, for that matter) has always been that he had so many matches against Morrison in ECW and so few stood out, with many just not being very good. So when I heard this match was good, I had doubts, because I just remembered two guys who were matched up so many times and couldn't quite pull off a good match. This was a great match. Normally, guys come into WWE and lose confidence, so there were things you saw in them outside the company, but they have been browbeaten and told they're doing everything wrong so they lose whatever spark they once had. Not at all the case here. In fact, both guys really look confident and very comfortable working the style in a long match. I think another easy talking point against Punk was always that he had the chance to do such long matches on the indies he wouldn't have a chance to do in WWE. But he's really mastered sub-15 minute TV matches and is quite good. It's interesting that Morrison is in my two favorite matches post-draft. I think in both cases, that's due to him being guided by a superior wrestler, but that's hardly a knock against Morrison and shouldn't be taken that way. Just watched this, and I'd probably have it as my TV MOTY so far. Great, great match. Punk looked fantastic in it, busting out some really choice offence (nasty German suplex, inverted supex from the middle turnbuckle, roundhouse leg sweep while Morrison was on the apron). I also liked him going for the sunset flip bomb and kicking Morrison in the neck so he'd let go of the rope. Finish was nice, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 I agree about the Flair/Steamboat Clash match. A few weeks ago I was burned out on wrestling and was like I just want to watch something good and came across that match. I probably hadn't watched it in 3 years but it was still an amazing great match that is a welcome suprise to come back to if you are burned out on current wrestling or want to just watch something awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Not a fan of Steamboat/Funk at Clash VII at all. The piledriver sidelined Ric Flair and Funk has been using it to destroy jobbers. Steamboat takes two piledrivers, including one on the arena floor, and still fights back and evens things up within a couple of minutes. Just not really that good of a match. Still, the post-match angle with Luger turning on Steamboat is one of my favorite angles of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yeah, Steamboat/Luger at the Bash is still awesome. Hard to say if this is Luger's best match ever, or if it is one of the Flair matches. As a Luger performance, this may be best, just because it's laid out really well and we now know he's the one who called the match. Love the no-DQ angle at the beginning, the hypocrisy of Luger bringing in a chair after insisting on a regular sanctioned match, and the visual of Luger in the Steamboat position and Steamboat in the Luger position, with Luger begging Steamboat not to hit him. The actual match itself is really awesome, especially Luger's triple clothesline and Steamboat's chops. Luger takes an impressive bump over the top rope when he misses a clothesline attempt and does his usual power moves. I don't want to take away from Steamboat obviously, as the match wouldn't have been the same without him, but I really think this is way more a Luger showcase than a Steamboat showcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Not a fan of Steamboat/Funk at Clash VII at all. The piledriver sidelined Ric Flair and Funk has been using it to destroy jobbers. Steamboat takes two piledrivers, including one on the arena floor, and still fights back and evens things up within a couple of minutes. Just not really that good of a match. Still, the post-match angle with Luger turning on Steamboat is one of my favorite angles of all time. Really enjoying reading your thoughts in this thread Loss, even if I find myself disagreeing with you way more than I would have thought. I like this match a lot as a legit out of control brawl, even with the problems you point to. On the other hand I think you and I are a dying breed on Flair v. Steamboat from SS 94. I've always liked it and never understood what the argument against it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yeah, Steamboat/Luger at the Bash is still awesome. Hard to say if this is Luger's best match ever, or if it is one of the Flair matches. As a Luger performance, this may be best, just because it's laid out really well and we now know he's the one who called the match. Love the no-DQ angle at the beginning, the hypocrisy of Luger bringing in a chair after insisting on a regular sanctioned match, and the visual of Luger in the Steamboat position and Steamboat in the Luger position, with Luger begging Steamboat not to hit him. The actual match itself is really awesome, especially Luger's triple clothesline and Steamboat's chops. Luger takes an impressive bump over the top rope when he misses a clothesline attempt and does his usual power moves. I don't want to take away from Steamboat obviously, as the match wouldn't have been the same without him, but I really think this is way more a Luger showcase than a Steamboat showcase. I like this an awful lot, but I'm not sure it's Luger's best singles match. Besides the Flair matches there is also the Pillman match from HH 89 that is awfully good. I also maybe the only person who likes Hayes v. Luger nearly as much as this match with Steamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Are you voting in the Smarkschoice poll, Loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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