Marty Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 So perhaps someone can ask Dave a few questions: * what year did it allegedly happen? * when did Dave first hear the rumor? * when did Vince allegedly first find out about it? John I'd like to know the answer to these questions too. When I first heard the rumour, it was that Savage banged a 14-year-old Stephanie, which would've been circa 1990-91. Now no one even specifies how old she was (just that it was before she was 18). I'd especially like to know when Vince allegedly first found out that rumour too. I have the occasional WWE publication since Savage left the company, and there have been some that have presented him in praise-like fashion. There was one in 2002/03 where they had a fantasy matchup between Triple H and Savage, with the consensus being that a match like that would be "too close to call". On top of that, there was this inaugural Smackdown Magazine issue after they rebranded it from WWE Magazine: http://www.hoffco-inc.com/wwe/mgs/wwf/smdn2003-13.html I'm inclined to still believe that Savage and Vince simply have professional differences. Savage is closer to Bruno on Vince's list than he is to, say, Benoit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 The story just doesn't make any sense unless Vince found out many, many years after the alleged incident took place, as the WWF and Randy Savage had negotiations to bring him back when his WCW contract expired in late '96 and late '99. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 The story just doesn't make any sense unless Vince found out many, many years after the alleged incident took place, as the WWF and Randy Savage had negotiations to bring him back when his WCW contract expired in late '96 and late '99. Given Vince's mental state in recent years, this is the only plausible scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Do you think Vince would care even if it did happen? Sure, I think he would if she were underage when it happened, but if it happened in '94, she wouldn't have been. And while he wasn't initially receptive to it, it didn't take much arm wringing when Stephanie started dating HHH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 It just doesn't pass the laugh test. I think people want to believe it because it fits the sleeze of the business, and stuff like Cornette and the Banana is old news. Folks need New Dirt. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 The story just doesn't make any sense unless Vince found out many, many years after the alleged incident took place, as the WWF and Randy Savage had negotiations to bring him back when his WCW contract expired in late '96 and late '99. Given Vince's mental state in recent years, this is the only plausible scenario. Yeah, my understanding of it in recent times - for whatever that's worth - was that it wasn't true, and Vince knew it not to be true, but it got repeated so many times that Vince just kinda started believing it because he's an insane old man who's lost all connection to reality. Meltzer believes it, but Meltzer also believes that MMA is "real" wrestling and Kurt Angle is an all-time great worker and has otherwise proven he can be really, really gullible if you give him a chance. Personally, I wouldn't look too hard at this. I don't think there's much there to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 "Even if it didn't happen, Vince believes it did" seems to be the most logical explanation though "Oliver knows" implied that something did happen. Someone reminded me that Vince and Linda were very close with Savage and Liz. Even if Stephanie wasn't involved in any way, shape, It can't be the initial departure, given Vince seemed willing to do business for close to a decade afterwards, so it's not the initial "betrayal" of leaving or anything having to do with the Slim Jim sponsorship (as someone speculated at the F4W forums a few months ago). Maybe Savage spent enough time w/ the McMahons to be around Stephanie a lot? Maybe Vince and/or Linda didn't know he abused Liz until after she died for some reason and then decided to shun him? It doesn't exactly make sense given Austin's presence and the fact that it's wrestling, but I can't think of anything else that would be deemed so bad by Vince. They've tried to do business with everyone else. Even after the latest blow-up with Warrior over the DVD, they still let Jakks work out deals to make Classic Superstars action figures of him, but they refuse to let Jakks make Savage figures as part of the line (the deals are done through Jakks and not WWE, which is why they released a Bruno figure). Foley (in TNA) and Savage are the only wrestlers he banned THQ from putting in the Legends of Wrestlemania game (it covers through WM15 in case you were wondering about Benoit). Even with Vince being crazy, he's always been willing to do business with everyone from Ventura (came down on the company hard Re: Owen Hart, didn't lose his spot after his union proposal pre-WM2) to Slaughter (fired for talking union and making his own merchandise deals) to Warrior (held him up for a huge amount of money) to Hogan (various things that led to Vince declaring he'd never be back over and over) to Bret Hart (punched him in the face among other things) to Superstar Graham (accused his #2 of child molestation) when he thought they would benefit his company or if he was in a forgiving mood. So if it doesn't involve the Stephanie rumor in any way (even if it was Vince believing a false rumor) what did Savage do so bad that when his name is brought up, everyone gets terrified and Vince spews a level of venom that nobody else gets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Maybe Vince and/or Linda didn't know he abused Liz until after she died for some reason and then decided to shun him? It's obviously not a tough conclusion to draw, but where has this been confirmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Maybe Vince and/or Linda didn't know he abused Liz until after she died for some reason and then decided to shun him? It's obviously not a tough conclusion to draw, but where has this been confirmed? That Savage was abusive in some way? The WON Liz obit didn't say he beat her, but did give examples of emotional abuse, like forcing Liz to stay at home with frozen dinners because he didn't want her leaving the house, as well as ordering her out of a pool after she started talking to 2 "very obviously gay men" who recognized her. There's also the whole matter of the Bolleas apparently convincing her to leave him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Gotcha. I was thinking it had been covered somewhere that he physically abused her, which I didn't remember ever hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I think in some way, the McMahons knew of the strange Savage/Liz dynamic, as Savage used to lock Liz in a room by herself if he would be wrestling without her at ringside in the 80's, and this was "known" behavior by the boys back then. Everybody knew that Savage had the weird jealousy thing going with Liz and short of an actual physical beating, I don't think anything would be considered out of the ordinary in that relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I've always been confused by that story, because Liz was always at ringside with him, unless we're talking about 1989 after Savage's heel turn, when she was only around for a few shows here and there, but even then, she was at ringside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Just because Vince "believes" it doesn't make it true. That's the point that some of us are trying to make. Even if Steph at some point "came clean to Vince", that doesn't mean that she wasn't blowing smoke up his ass. These are two nutjobs. We all agree that Savage is a nutter as well. But the story keeps morphing as different elements end up conflicting with reality. It's really "Jumbo Is Lazy" territory. Somewhere buried in the bottom there may be a grain of "something" that made people believe it. But the evidence/timeline didn't match, so new facts had to be created, that didn't match, then a new version... at a certain point you just throw up your arms. Is it possible that Vince thinks Macho was banging Steph at some point between she was 14 to 18? Sure. Is it possible that Steph told Vince that Macho was banging her at some point between she was 14 to 18? Sure. True? So far, the story hasn't added up other than the "evidence" that Vince Hates Macho. Stuff like this gets nutty in terms of the truth. I have a cousin who was molested by her stepfather, and he's went to the slammer. It was extremely hard for her to get it out, but she was 100% truthful when she broke through on it. I have an aunt who years after the fact claimed she was, and my mother is 100% certain she's full of shit. And over time we've seen that the aunt is just fucking nuts in the head on lots of stuff. In this case, we have three nuts. Vince is the biggest nut of the three, and that he "believes" really means nothing. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Emailed Dave to clarify: - He was first given the "he's too crazy" excuse around '01-'02 (the sleaze thread was '04). "[T]he 'he's too crazy' stories were after I had heard the rumors, but the rumors weren't very prevalent as they later became." He said that he refused to believe it for years "even though people who knew Vince real well insisted they were true. Just sounded like wrestling b.s. But the 'he's too crazy' didn't add up that is wasn't covering up something." - He agrees that Savage couldn't have been fired for it based on every reason cited. Vince told him personally that he'd love to have Savage back as late as '98 (EDIT: The original post said '04 as I had the date on my mind to mention the sleaze thread date but somehow transposed it without noticing. I apologize for the major error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Vince told him personally that he'd love to have Savage back as late as '98 (EDIT: The original post said '04 as I had the date on my mind to mention the sleaze thread date but somehow transposed it without noticing. I apologize for the major error. That seems to disprove (read: would have disproved) the theory that Vince holds Savage's abuse of Miss Elizabeth against him (either falling for his own con or offended that his con was exposed), despite the heavy eulogizing after her death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Dave's e-mail doesn't help clarify it. Seriously... Dave starts hearing about it in 2001-2002, but even in 2004 Vince would love to have Savage back. It doesn't add up. The only thing hat this seems to hang on is that Vince believes it *now*, and all of us are assuming that's because Steph at some point had to have "confirmed" it to him. Since those two things appear to have happened *after* 2004, a decade or more after it allegedly happened, and has a pair of major nutters (Vince and Steph) at the center of it... Why is anyone exactly buying this? Sarah Palin believes in abstinance only education, even through both her and her own daughter got knocked up before marriage. Just because that nutter "believes" doesn't mean we should believe. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm wondering if Dave now believes not because "nothing else adds up" or "Vince believes it", and instead because Savage copped to someone (or several people) that he and Steph had a fling? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Has Dave ever talked to Randy Savage directly? I would assume he is not now, or he would ask him, but was there ever any point where they were talking regularly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Vince told him personally that he'd love to have Savage back as late as '04. That seems to disprove the theory that Vince holds Savage's abuse of Miss Elizabeth against him (either falling for his own con or offended that his con was exposed), despite the heavy eulogizing after her death. Seriously... Dave starts hearing about it in 2001-2002, but even in 2004 Vince would love to have Savage back. It doesn't add up. Whoops that was supposed to say '98, the sleaze thread date somehow ended up there. Sorry for the major slip-up. Could you guys edit your posts accordingly to fix the flow of he thread? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I take that to mean: Vince told Dave in 1998 that he would have loved to have Macho back? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I take that to mean: Vince told Dave in 1998 that he would have loved to have Macho back? John That's correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 The thing about Vince is this is the guy who wanted to do an angle where he was the father of his own grandchild. How offended can a guy be over someone fucking your daughter if he wanted to fuck her too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Has Dave ever talked to Randy Savage directly? I would assume he is not now, or he would ask him, but was there ever any point where they were talking regularly? Don't know. My point wasn't that Savage copped to Dave. More that Savage copped having a fling with Steph to "someone" (or several "someones"), and that person (or persons) told Dave. Because I'm still not getting Dave's logic for believing other than coming at it from that direction. "Vince Believes"... you've read 20+ years of WON's, Loss. How many times have you come across Dave taking something that "Vince believes" and ripped the fuck out if it? Or laughed and dismissed it? Even before Vince completely lost his mind in the past decade, back in the 80s and 90s there were plenty of Vince Believes that were dismissed as being stupid. Such as Vince's repeated pushing of Big Men like Sid and Nash to turn around the company. Hell... Dave's "Vince Will Go Back To A Big Man" spot was done so often it was almost a cliche if it wasn't so true. I don't get it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 The thing about Vince is this is the guy who wanted to do an angle where he was the father of his own grandchild. How offended can a guy be over someone fucking your daughter if he wanted to fuck her too? *laugh* And I doubt that Steph being 17 would offend him either. This guy has employed Lawler for how long? Lord knows where Vince draws the line for "age of consent" when he has a freaking dirty old man like Jerry on the payroll, and brought him back just as soon as the smoke blew away on King's problems. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Has Dave ever talked to Randy Savage directly? I would assume he is not now, or he would ask him, but was there ever any point where they were talking regularly? Don't know. My point wasn't that Savage copped to Dave. More that Savage copped having a fling with Steph to "someone" (or several "someones"), and that person (or persons) told Dave. Because I'm still not getting Dave's logic for believing other than coming at it from that direction. "Vince Believes"... you've read 20+ years of WON's, Loss. How many times have you come across Dave taking something that "Vince believes" and ripped the fuck out if it? Or laughed and dismissed it? Even before Vince completely lost his mind in the past decade, back in the 80s and 90s there were plenty of Vince Believes that were dismissed as being stupid. Such as Vince's repeated pushing of Big Men like Sid and Nash to turn around the company. Hell... Dave's "Vince Will Go Back To A Big Man" spot was done so often it was almost a cliche if it wasn't so true. I don't get it. John Oh, I don't disagree in any way. I was just asking if anything was known about Dave's relationship with Savage. More as a sidebar question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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