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supremebve

Member Since 26 Aug 2015
Offline Last Active Today, 11:45 AM
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Posts I've Made

In Topic: WWE Hidden Gems

Today, 09:24 AM

 

 

- For all of the talk of WWE "missing the boat" with Omega, it's easy to see why he would not have been anyone's definition of a "sure thing" in 2006. Like AJ Styles back then, he simply needed more time, seasoning, and experience elsewhere.

 

AJ Styles in 2006 was a great worker already. I'd call him legit great as early as 2005 at worst.

 

 

But he had literally nothing else going for him back then - bad look (fresh-faced fraternity dork), abysmal mic work, etc. For better or worse, he would not have made it in the WWE of 2006.

 

You are putting the blame in the wrong place.  AJ Styles was more than ready as a professional wrestler, 2006.  WWE was worse as a product than AJ Styles was as a wrestler.  The aftermath from all of the wrestler deaths, the reboot of DX, HHH being the top star, JBL, Kurt Angle flaming out, etc.  AJ was better than all of that.  


In Topic: UFC 203: Because CM Punk is finally fighting

16 June 2018 - 02:50 PM

I started lifting seriously in the 8th grade for football and it was all about form and doing things the right way.  I'm 36 years old and have never had a weight lifting injury, because I was taught the right way from the beginning.  I knew that Velasquez video was going to be bad as soon as he lifted that kettlebell with a curved spine.  Why is he doing kettlebell swings with a 203 lb. kettlebell?  There is no way whatsoever you can actually control that amount of weight, he's essentially just slowly tearing his labrums over and over again.  No wonder his shoulders are tied together with spit, gum, and baling wire.  


In Topic: UFC 203: Because CM Punk is finally fighting

15 June 2018 - 02:15 PM

I'm dying laughing at the list of fighters who haven't shown any cognitive issues including Ken Shamrock.  

 

Otherwise, you have some good points, this has been fun.


In Topic: UFC 203: Because CM Punk is finally fighting

15 June 2018 - 12:29 PM

 

I disagree with a few of your points, first MMA fighters have just as much steroids, drug, etc. culture as pro wrestling. There are tons of fighters from years past who admitted and have been caught with drugs and steroids to the point the UFC has had to shoot itself in the foot with USADA busting some of their top stars to quell the risk of scandal of their sport being revealed as "dirty".

 

Second the day to day training for a fighter during fight camp is more damaging and intense but they also get a hell of a lot more time off and few fight more than 3/4 times a year on the major stage compared to all the dates pro wrestlers in the past worked hurt or not. Also even Daniel Cormier said when he tried out pro wrestling that it was way harder bumping all the time than training for Olympic Wrestling or MMA because you have to let your opponent beat you up whereas in fighting you can control a lot of the damage coming your way or stop guys dead without taking any shots.

 

With Chuck Liddell sure he does have a significant change in his speech patterns and expressing his thoughts verbally but he was also a noted partier who was rumored to be a heavy cocaine user and drinker. Also since you mention Tito in your Chuck example he sounds the same from his UFC debut in 1997 to now and he took as many shots and trained harder than almost anyone of his era and came out fine.

 

As for wrestlers not showing trauma look at Foley during his prime years in the mid nineties, the man went from ECW/IWA Japan doing hardcore style and cutting the best promos of his career to WWF in the Attitude era only 2 years later and admitted in his book and in Beyond The Mat as suffering horrible memory loss and getting lost trying to find his own house driving home or his room in hotels on many occasions due to the increased amount of dates week in and week out causing way more wear and tear than the sporadic ECW/Japan commitments.

 

So it's not cut and dry and really comes down to the individual, their genetics, the damage they took and the way they took care of their bodies and health.

My first point was that those things aren't actually parts of the sport in this context.  All of those things are clearly reasons both sports are more dangerous than they have to be, but you can do both activities and never participate in any of those things.  So, sure they're not exclusive to either sport but neither sport exclusively employs drug addicts and steroid users. 

 

The day to day training for a fighter, especially one at the UFC level is pretty brutal, that is why so many fights get cancelled.  I was listening to a podcast where a couple of MMA journalists were talking about some of the craziest things they seen at training camps, and one of them was how no one wears headgear while sparring.  Another thing was how many places take pride in their "hard" practices where they basically spar at full power multiple times a week.  There is a good chance that Cain Velasquez, who probably should be the best heavyweight of all time's, entire career has been destroyed the debilitating injuries he's suffered in practice.  Daniel Cormier, who has suffered his share of practice injuries, has been an elite wrestler since he was a child, of course he gets beat up more doing pro wrestling than in Olympic wrestling or MMA.  He's not an elite pro wrestler.  Other than the aforementioned Cain Velasquez, who Cormier coach, there really isn't anyone who is going to be able to compete with him enough to beat him up in the gym.  

 

It isn't just Chuck's speech that was the problem, he was physically deteriorated in a way that he went from having one of the best chins in the sport to one of the worst over night.  Sure, his lifestyle probably didn't help, but him blocking punches with his face didn't help either.  Tito, for what it is worth, only really took major head trauma while fighting Chuck.  Of his 5 KO/TKO losses, 2 were from body damage, one was essentially from exhaustion, and the two Liddell fights which he kind of turtled up and let the ref stop it once he was hurt.  Don't get me wrong, he's taken his damage over the years, but he was always smart about not taking too much damage.

 

Foley is not typical for pro wrestling though.  It's amazing that he's still alive based on how he treated his body over the years.  Let's say John Cena, who is clearly harder on his body than most pro wrestlers, is the typical pro wrestler.  How long is realistic for him to wrestle a full career?  20-25 years?  Do you think somoene like Max Holloway, who is a 26 year old champion can fight for 20-25 years?  He won his belt from Jose Aldo, who is about as good of an MMA fighter who has ever lived, but is clearly past his prime at 31 years old.  He's not a guy who took a lot of damage in fights, but he's clearly deteriorated in a way that is obvious to anyone who has watched his career.  A 31 year old pro wrestler who isn't going out of their way to work a dangerous style is not someone you'd generally call past their prime.  

 

I think the real issue is how many punches to the face do you have to take, before you learn how to effectively defend punches to the face?  How many times do you bang your head off of a mat, before you perfect your takedown defense?  How much does a kick to the head actually scramble your brain?  Learning pro wrestling means learning how to make it look like you got punched in the face, how to minimize the damage you take on slams and suplexes, and not getting legit knocked unconscious by getting kicked in the head.  Training combat sports you actually take all the damage you are faking in pro wrestling.  


In Topic: UFC 203: Because CM Punk is finally fighting

15 June 2018 - 10:03 AM

 

 

The really sad part is that CM Punk probably doesn't even realize that his health, safety, and well-being was as exploited by Dana White and Duke Roufus as it ever was by Vince McMahon and WWE.

Probably worse.  For as bad as wrestling is for you, most wrestlers don't end up with pugilistic dementia.  I remember when I was a kid, me and my cousin wanted to take up boxing, so we asked my uncle to take us to train and he looked at us and said, "no, everyone who boxes ends up with slurred speech."  Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were just on the Dan LeBatard show and even though both of their bodies are broken they are still cutting promos like its 1985.  

 

How many former employees (sorry, independent contractors) of Vince McMahon did not reach the age of 60 or even 45? As much as he disgusts me, I highly doubt that number will ever be anything resembling like that for Dana White.

 

Are we pretending that those were problems with the act of wrestling vs. the act of fighting in a cage?  Drugs, steroids, suicide, etc. are problems with pro wrestling, but have much more to do with the culture around the sport than the sport itself.  Everything about professional fighting from the practice to the actual fights is about trying to maximize the damage you do to your opponent.  Wrestling on the other hand is about how to protect you and your opponent and minimizing damage.  Neither are safe, but you are going to take a much bigger physical beating on the day to day fighting.  Wrestling may be worse in the extreme long term, because wrestlers are able to wrestle for far longer than a professional fighter is able to fight.  Honestly, go back and watch Chuck Liddel's fights, and note how quickly his prefight interviews go from sounding like an articulate dude who could do your taxes to almost unintelligible.  If you start at the first Tito fight, he sounds like an English teacher, but by the second Tito fight he sound like a completely different human being.  That is a two and a half year span.  Unless there is a Steve Austin head drop or something, it can take a decade before a wrestler shows that kind of obvious trauma.