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Separate But Equal?: The ultimate goal of Feminism in wrestling


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#1 Luchaundead

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 03:14 PM

This is a something I’ve meant to write for quite some time but, never got around to it. With the end of the PWO-GWE project and a recent post by Dylan Hales I knew it was time for it at least to show that there is a place for the conversation. What is truly a “Feminist” stance on a woman place in pro-wrestling and what is a “proper” inter-gender match? (Not to be confused with trans-gender gimmicks something I’m stuff not even sure about)

 

There has been an argument among everyone involved with wrestling including fans, workers, promoters, journalists, and even outsiders about the place of women in the wrestling world. As some might believe old timers saw them only as rats there for the boys (which does include females) to use for their own pleasure. Treating them the same as any mark the difference being rather than part with their money they wanted them to part their legs. Over time women seem to have this pesky instinct to want to be treated like people so they found ways to sneak into the business some using their sexuality on and off screen to find their way into the boys club.

 

I’d like to take a moment to explain my statement earlier that women are included in the group titled “The Boys”. The boys a term used to mean the workers or wrestlers in the back is not masculine in nature when in the context of wrestling vernacular. As any linguist worth his salt will tell you English is a living language constantly changing based on connotation of words becoming the new definition those words. One of the boys is someone you trust more closely than anyone because you have to trust your life to them be it literally in ring or figuratively from your livelihood based on how well a show will draw and if your crew is the shits well you won’t be drawing very well. Sorry for that diatribe.

 

 Now if you look at modern wrestling and the roles women play it’s very obvious that they now can easily fill them all production, management, and performance but, the real question is what is the true feminist position for women as wrestling performers? For women to truly be equal to men are they to have their own separate but equal divisions or even companies? The argument there being that women should have all the same opportunities and spots as men. I can see an argument that a women only promotion is truly a feminist ideal as having women’s matches that are not the only drawing force on shows where men’s matches are drawing the bulk of fans could be seen as subsidizing the women and not truly giving them the equal responsibilities the men have to support themselves. A concept, something I have heard stated by Joe Lanza of Voices of Wrestling, that throwing one women on a card wrestling a man is an issues because you are essentially stealing a spot for another women by having an inter-gender match. While I’d say Lanza is far from a feminist scholar this is a point that resonated me at times.

 

Are inter-gender matches inherently sexist? They are matches where men and women are theoretically being treated one-hundred percent as equals but does that get to the true root of what feminism really means and does it always play out that way in practice? I would never decry an entire or genre as sexist, racist, or really any ‘ist the world is full of gray areas. Many times there are underlying and problematic themes to inter-gender matches that include but are not limited to: rape, domestic abuse, dismissive treatment of women, and objectification. When an inter-gender match is done properly to suit the ideals of feminism all competitors are competing based on their merit and sex is left completely off the table.

 

So what is the right answer, is it separate but equal or is it full integration? What is feminist wrestling, is it female world champions or women’s specific championships? What is even sexism in wrestling, is it using women to fit an over-sexualized role or is it excluding them all together? Like most things there is no right answer that suites every occasion but, much like pornography I know a bad inter-gender match when I see it and a lot of times Joey Ryan is involved.



#2 Ship Canal

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 03:57 PM

There is PLENTY I have to say on this, but I'm not sure if I want to necessarily wade into things right away, especially with Charles still working out how best to put in place the Wrestling Criticism folder so we can discuss these deeper sociopolitical issues with some kind of consensus on what the rules of engagement are. I worry that without those having been put into place this kind of topic could descend pretty quickly into ill informed snarkiness, people chucking around tired trigger warning jokes and mischaracterizations of feminism. I'm not saying there is a huge amount of that on this particular board, but I do think its something that can get out of hand double quick. Its also really difficult for someone like me to discuss stuff like this without recourse to the kind of phrasing that might be considered jargon by some but which is common parlance other circles these days, and some people have already begun to say they feel some of the discussions around American imperialism and GWE should be knocked on the head in that folder. They don't have to read this thread of course, but I do think the ensuing discussion will be better in the proposed new folder if it gets off the ground.

So for now, just a few thoughts that sprung to mind: 

Firstly, there are as many different types of feminism as there are conservatisms or queer liberation theories or what have you, so the response to the questions you pose are largely going to be defined by that. For example, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist activist and the kind of feminism that I would subscribe to is heavily influenced by the experiences and testimony of other anarcha-feminists and this makes me naturally very resistant to, say, liberal feminism (liberal in the traditionally understood European definition of the term - establishment centrist/centre right) or the kind of corporate feminism represented by a Sheryl Sandberg or someone. Contemporary anarcha feminism also tends to be strongly influenced by intersectional theory and trans liberation theory, and therefore very hostile to something like the RadFem movement who we would view as transphobic. 

So you can see just from that brief outline of where the particular type of feminism I'm more steeped in stands in relation to a couple of other strands of feminist thinking, its almost impossible to answer your question about the ultimate end goal of feminism in wrestling because the ultimate end goals of feminsims themselves are not the same. 

I've got some other thoughts too but I'll break up the posts in the interests of it looking neater that way and maybe come back to the thread tomorrow after other people have commented. 



#3 fxnj

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 04:07 PM

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

I'm not joking. Kana/Asuka was my favorite wrestler in the world back when she was promoting shows where she'd main event in these intergender tag matches against shoot style legends. A large part of what made those matches so great was the feminist narrative of this women who shunned the traditional joshi style and wrestled like a BattlArts worker trying to prove she could transcend the sex gap and hang with the old masters. The tag against Ikeda/Syuri was one of my favorite matches from 2012

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=gm3kME6bXs0

#4 Grimmas

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 04:19 PM

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

I don't think I buy that.

 

This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.



#5 Ship Canal

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 04:20 PM

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

I'm not joking. Kana/Asuka was my favorite wrestler in the world back when she was promoting shows where she'd main event in these intergender tag matches against shoot style legends. A large part of what made those matches so great was the feminist narrative of this women who shunned the traditional joshi style and wrestled like a BattlArts worker trying to prove she could transcend the sex gap and hang with the old masters. The tag against Ikeda/Syuri was one of my favorite matches from 2012

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=gm3kME6bXs0

 

I agree with much of that, but with one massive caveat: I believe strongly that while patriarchy/capitalism/oppression still exists those social groups that are marginalized by it will still find it necessary to escape its preconceived narratives and bullshit expectations by also organizing independently and separately from it. This carves out a space that hasn't been afforded to those groups historically and enables them to exercise their own autonomy. Its why women only spaces/trans only spaces etc are still important for a lot of people. Its not excluding men or cis people, its simply stating that we live in a world which is structured to ensure men and cis people are advantaged in ways that women and trans people aren't, and that this particular space, for this particular period of time, is ours to explore ourselves and what it means to be us without having to live up to your expectations. And in that light, you can see how a womens only promotion isn't necessarily an automatic step down from a feminist ideal. 

The structures of power we exist in matter a great deal and until we move beyond them it can sometimes be necessary to organize along lines of identity, too, and the two aren't necessarily contradictory. 



#6 fxnj

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 04:39 PM


I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

I don't think I buy that.
 
This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.
Guessing you weren't paying attention back when the UFC was selling Ronda as a once in a lifetime athlete and everyone was fantasy booking her against male bantamweight?

#7 Ship Canal

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 05:46 PM

 

 

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

I don't think I buy that.
 
This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.
Guessing you weren't paying attention back when the UFC was selling Ronda as a once in a lifetime athlete and everyone was fantasy booking her against male bantamweight?

 

Fantasy booking and terrible bros on Sherdog forums relishing the idea of her getting beaten up by TJ Dillashaw is one thing. There weren't a slew of considered think pieces or serious debates about the legitimacy of intergender competition though, at least as far as I recall (happy to stand corrected though)



#8 Eduardo

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:05 PM

I was in Austin not too long ago, and I remember walking into a book store. They had some cool books there that I bought, but there was also meeting going on there that I was eaves dropping on. It was about 14 white men, who all looked like they were pretty well off, financially speaking, talking about second-wave feminism. 
 
I think one of the issues with a lot of discussion of feminism in professional wrestling online circles is the same thing, is that a lot of the conversation is led by white dudes for white dudes. And like Gray Maynard said once, after an awful fight with Clay Guida, "that shit gets boring". 
 
I like a lot of what Ship Canal is saying here, and he is saying it better than I could. Also, we also should recognize that there are other ideological terms out there, like I have plenty of friends that identify as mujeristas or womanists. 
 
I guess, I have a different question. What can we do, to get the voices of women or gender queer individuals heard in professional wrestling online circles, without tokenizing them? 


#9 Cross Face Chicken Wing

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:18 PM


I was in Austin not too long ago, and I remember walking into a book store. They had some cool books there that I bought, but there was also meeting going on there that I was eaves dropping on. It was about 14 white men, who all looked like they were pretty well off, financially speaking, talking about second-wave feminism. 
 
I think one of the issues with a lot of discussion of feminism in professional wrestling online circles is the same thing, is that a lot of the conversation is led by white dudes for white dudes. And like Gray Maynard said once, after an awful fight with Clay Guida, "that shit gets boring". 
 
I like a lot of what Ship Canal is saying here, and he is saying it better than I could. Also, we also should recognize that there are other ideological terms out there, like I have plenty of friends that identify as mujeristas or womanists. 
 
I guess, I have a different question. What can we do, to get the voices of women or gender queer individuals heard in professional wrestling online circles, without tokenizing them? 


Are there a lot of women or gender queer individuals out there trying, and getting shut out, when attempting to make their voices heard in wrestling circles?

#10 Zenjo

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 09:14 PM

pseudhd.gif


Firstly, there are as many different types of feminism as there are conservatisms or queer liberation theories or what have you, so the response to the questions you pose are largely going to be defined by that. For example, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist activist and the kind of feminism that I would subscribe to is heavily influenced by the experiences and testimony of other anarcha-feminists and this makes me naturally very resistant to, say, liberal feminism (liberal in the traditionally understood European definition of the term - establishment centrist/centre right) or the kind of corporate feminism represented by a Sheryl Sandberg or someone. Contemporary anarcha feminism also tends to be strongly influenced by intersectional theory and trans liberation theory, and therefore very hostile to something like the RadFem movement who we would view as transphobic.



#11 MoS

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 09:32 PM

There was this time when I tried to make a very good female friend, who identifies herself as a feminist, start following wrestling. She was a bit apprehensive, but she agreed to give it a shot. One of the first thing she watched was a Vickie Guerrero segment/match, where Jerry Lawler constantly kept making fun of her for being fat and ugly. Bear in mind that this was after she had lost a ton of weight, so not only was it nasty and uncalled-for, it was also stupid and nonsensical. She ignored it the first couple of times, but when, in her words, "that creepy old man who thinks it is totally okay to be fat himself but makes fun of women for being fat and not bangeable enough for him" kept doing the same shit every week for quite some time, she tapped out. She said it would have been okay had her weight been a part of some storyline or added purpose to the matches or the segments, but it wasn't; it was just a commentator being an asshole. A babyface commentator, no less, although I don't think she even knew then that colour commentators are often heel.

 

My point is that the presentation of women in wrestling will have to drastically change, at least as far as WWE is concerned, for feminists in general to start becoming fans. Hopefully, Steph gaining more power means that at the very least, in some time the official WWE humour won't be what an out-of-touch 70 year old man thinks is funny.



#12 donsem43

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 10:38 PM

Given how they are treated, it's pretty amazing that the women still have a strong connection with female fans like this.



#13 fakeplastictrees

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:26 PM

I am actually working on a piece, for my website, that will touch on this in some respect. In short: feminism has been portrayed in the worse way in pro wrestling over the last 20 years or so. The majority of companies play to straw feminism, the worse element of feminism, for both heels and faces which has lead to some of the most ridiculous self-parodying of feminism passed off with a straight face. If you want to know how NOT to do feminism in pro wrestling, take a look at the biggest example: Stephanie McMahon.



#14 MoS

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:29 PM

I agree, fakeplastictrees, and I look forward to reading your article.

#15 Jimmy Redman

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:53 PM

I have many thoughts. Forgive me as I try to lay them out as coherently as I possibly can.

 

1. The first thing that has to be stressed is Ship Canal's point that feminism is not a monolith, there are many different types of feminism and I'm sure you could view wrestling through the lens of feminism and come up with wildly different answers to this question. So I'm wary of statements that begin with "the only truly feminist way to promote wrestling is..." and you all should be too.

 

2. The second thing that has to be stressed is another point already made above me by Eduardo, that this is a discussion about feminism and the role of women in wrestling being carried out by mostly men. Now, that's just a reality of the makeup of this board (and all wrestling boards) and if there's any place where I trust a bunch of dreaded Straight White Males to have an earnest conversation about this it is definitely PWO. But I suppose one must always keep in mind that there's a limit to how much a lot of us can understand the experience of feminism and being a woman in wrestling.

 

3. My third caveat is a personal one, in that the way that I interact with feminism most of the time is through sport, specifically women's sport and the gender gap in sports coverage, money, support, etc. I created a Facebook page called Women's Sport in Sydney because I was frustrated with the lack of coverage of women's sport in my area. The struggle of women in sport is quite similar to the struggle of women in wrestling, actually, so a lot of what I touch on might have a basis in sports. It also might not, I have no idea what I'm going to say yet.

 

Luchaundead poses a lot of different questions, and they need different answers so I will address them separately.

 

Is inter-gender wrestling inherently sexist?

 

I don't think so, no. I agree with you in that a perfect inter-gender match would be completely devoid of sexual connotation and be worked as a contest between two wrestlers. Of course, this is pro wrestling and often that is where they fall down, making the match about sexuality. I mean even if you try to subvert the idea of male sexual dominance and have the female on top, you're still making it about sex, when it should be a wrestling match. But wrestling as a medium is often geared towards the lowest common denominator, for the cheap pop, for instant gratification, and when you put women and men together in front of a largely male audience, it is inevitably thought that going for something sexualised is the best (and easiest) route to take.

 

But no, I don't think the format itself is always doomed. People have already pointed to examples where it can work, such as Kana's run of inter-gender matches. All it takes is for everyone to treat it seriously and respectfully (as with all manner of things in wrestling). I haven't seen any of the inter-gender stuff involving Ivelisse or whoever in Lucha Underground (for the love of God someone tell me how to hook myself up with LU) but I'd be interested to see how they are portrayed there.

 

The funny thing about all this is that WWE, of all places, has a decent track record of relatively respectful inter-gender matches. Of course that goes along with all of the disrespectful stuff they've done too, but I mean I can think back to things like Lita getting to rana and moonsault all of the guys, Chyna competing in male divisions and winning belts, Beth Phoenix eliminating Khali from the Rumble that one time...there are actually times when they treat women as having physical talent that allows them to compete with men without irony. That match that Trish & Lita had on PPV vs Jericho & Christian during their angle...I mean I can't remember how much, if any, sexualised stuff there was in the match, but I remember it being an astonishingly great example of allowing the women to hang physically with the men to a certain extent without it coming off as hokey or un-believable. It was worked as a straight up match, and it worked.

 

So no, inter-gender wrestling isn't inherently sexist. But it would need to be treated as an athletic contest without sexual connotation, just the same way a match between two males is. Otherwise it can descend into something that sexualises and demeans women, and at worst gets a little too close to portraying sexual assault and violence against women than any reasonable person should be comfortable with.

 

Is it sexist to portray women in over-sexualised roles, or is it sexist to exclude them altogether?

 

The fairly obvious answer is that both are sexist. Is one more sexist than the other? I don't know, but I think it's pretty irrelevant to try to grade the different levels of sexism present, instead of saying that they're both sexist, and that the solution is to do something that isn't sexist. You see this in ALL areas of life where a feminist argument is present, it always goes along the lines of:

A: This female in this male dominated area is treated horribly/treated unfairly/sexually objectified/not taken seriously/subject to harrassment or abuse

B: Well would you prefer if there were NO women there?? Just be grateful that she's present in this area at all!

 

Apparently it hasn't occurred to any of those Bs that it is also possible for a woman to inhabit a space without being abused or exploited, and that that would be infinitely preferable to either being abused or exploited, or to not being there at all.

 

This false dichotomy comes up, where women either get a marginalised presence, or no presence at all. Those are the choices, pick one. And if you choose to be present, you have to accept that you will be subject to any kind of suffering that males seem fit, because that's the price you pay for being allowed to be included. And then in turn if you choose to not be present in a toxic space, you have to accept that it was your own choice and there's nothing stopping you from including yourself.

 

How about we all choose Option C.

 

On the question of what is more preferable, or more feminist - women competing with men or women portrayed as separate but equal to men? 

 

I can't answer this, because like I said there's no one right answer that will cover all of feminism. Feminists can decide that for themselves. I guess my answer to the question is both, but neither. Again, to me it really goes beyond a question of "Which is better, A or B?" You can theoretically have feminist wrestling without having women ever compete against men. You can also theoretically have feminist wrestling that integrates them wholly with men. And you can have feminist wrestling with both. 

 

The key to feminism in wrestling isn't in what specific form presentation of females wrestling takes. It's about simply treating female wrestlers the same way you treat male wrestlers. Treating them with respect. Treating them as people. The idea that there's no fundamental difference between male wrestling and female wrestling. The idea that female wrestlers are not there to be exploited, or marginalised, or there simply to titillate a male audience. The idea that they deserve as much promotion, as much presence on a wrestling card, as much time to wrestle matches as male wrestlers get. The idea that women could headline a WWE card, in the same way that a female fight can headline a UFC card. The idea that they can go out and have a wrestling match without being subject to sexual harassment by either the audience, the announcers, other wrestlers, or the company.

 

When you get to the point where two women wrestling a match is as normal and as non-sexualised and as accepted as two men wrestling a match. That will be feminism at work in wrestling.

 

As much as the tide is turning on this issue in the world in general, in sports in general, and in wrestling in general in recent times, there is still a LONG way to go for this to become a reality. Sexism is so completely entrenched in wrestling, particularly WWE. There is the emphasis on good looks and perfect bodies that was once paramount in hiring practices and probably still is to a large extent (and how the company reacts when women fall outside their vision of "beauty", from the treatment of Vickie to the portrayal of women like Molly or Mickie as fat or homely). In entertainment looks will always play a factor and I don't argue that, nor do I argue that male wrestlers' looks play a part for them as well, but it is so much harder for women to overcome this than men, and use of their looks is so much more exploitative. With women looks are prioritized so much more than actual wrestling, to the point where Mickie James had an elevated DDT finisher that so many of her opponents couldn't lift her up for because they were too skinny, which resulted in some dangerous bumps.

 

WWE has made some baby steps in the last year or so, and a lot of the largely ceremonial stuff has been taken care of. We've lost the purple butterfly belt and the term "Divas". The truly hideous aspects of creepy announcing and things like Bra and Panties matches are a thing of the past. We have the Divas revolution and Steph is their corporate feminist sponsor. Women get headline spots in NXT. There are more women's matches on WWE TV than there used to be, and they often get a bit longer to work or go through a commercial break. All of this is "progress" but it's also still largely window dressing. Women are still in their own little "token" spot on the card. It's just now there's a lot less sexual exploitation than there used to be. The next step is to move past tokenism and into truly equal portrayal. That is the part that will take time, and more than anything takes a willingness to do so. But we've seen it pretty much become a reality in NXT at this point, so it's certainly not impossible for this company to accomplish if they set out to do it.

 

I want to speak to the idea of being a female online wrestling fan as well, but I gotta go kick a football around so it will have to wait.

 

A few extra things to ponder:

 

This thread that I think came about after Sasha vs Becky, with Grimmas asking why women can't headline in WWE. More than anything else I think it's a fascinating look at how much opinions about women's wrestling and feminism in wrestling have changed JUST on this board and JUST in the last 12 months. And I'm not calling anyone out, I mean even I said things in that thread that I now strongly disagree with (such as that women will never headline a WWE PPV, nor should they bother trying).

 

This article "Can you be a feminist & a WWE wrestling fan?" and the others about WWE posted on SBS Zela, which is a site that covers women's sport and women in sport run by a major Australian TV network. The fact that a serious sports website in this country, particularly a feminist one, would cover wrestling at all (and totally independent of me) is amazing on so many levels. I know in America mainstream sports sites like Grantland and Deadspin and what not cover pro wrestling, but there is really NONE of that in Australian sports coverage.



#16 Ship Canal

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 02:41 AM

pseudhd.gif

 

Firstly, there are as many different types of feminism as there are conservatisms or queer liberation theories or what have you, so the response to the questions you pose are largely going to be defined by that. For example, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist activist and the kind of feminism that I would subscribe to is heavily influenced by the experiences and testimony of other anarcha-feminists and this makes me naturally very resistant to, say, liberal feminism (liberal in the traditionally understood European definition of the term - establishment centrist/centre right) or the kind of corporate feminism represented by a Sheryl Sandberg or someone. Contemporary anarcha feminism also tends to be strongly influenced by intersectional theory and trans liberation theory, and therefore very hostile to something like the RadFem movement who we would view as transphobic.

 

 

 

Yeah, I was waiting for that. I'm fine with being cast as a prime candidate for Pseuds Corner given the position in British culture that Private Eye now occupies. 

I think it can be a bit of a derailing tactic sometimes, the Pseuds Corner thing. Its not like any of the words I've used in the previous posts aren't in common useage when it comes to current discussions of the subject. I've merely mentioned some prominent types of feminism and highlighted the fact that they don't necessarily all pull in the same direction, that's all. It would seem odd to me to not to use some of those expressions given the context of the post. Its not like I'm using them to obfuscate a discussion about Tamura's limbwork or whatever.   :P 

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on it, need to take in Jimmy Redman's excellent post.



#17 El-P

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:28 AM

I haven't seen any of the inter-gender stuff involving Ivelisse or whoever in Lucha Underground (for the love of God someone tell me how to hook myself up with LU) but I'd be interested to see how they are portrayed there.

 

Inter-gender match in LU are basically as good as you can make them without being too unrealistic of make the process idiotic looking, since there are a lot of spots playing with body momentum and such, which already looke "funny" in pure lucha anyway. When they're dealing with a huge size and weight difference, because that's really what it comes down to, they are trying to do the most of it kinda like the small woman would be a small man.

 

Still, at some point, there's still this fact of a man hitting a woman which can get creepy quite quickly.

 

The worst representation of "feminism" always have been Russo's of course. PMS. Say no more.

 

Bayley is really the closest thing from a totally unsexualised (but still cute, as in, not made to look like some kind of ugly nerd like she would have in the past) and positive feminist figure in WWE. Stephy sure isn't. 

 

Japanese wrestlers, I think it's a whole different ballgame, as you can't essentialize things, and I think one would have to really understand the Japanese society and its codes to really talk about it. When I heard Dylan write than Dump vs Chiggy had "rape porn" element in it, I really cringed for instance.



#18 JerryvonKramer

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:30 AM

The women's division an be a real success, but it remains the case that the only way feminism will ever get over in the world of wrestling is as a heel act, especially with the current asshole crowds.

#19 ohtani's jacket

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 04:06 AM

The rape porn thing seemed completely misguided to me since the direct audience were young girls, but it's worth nothing that the first hair match was considered excessively violent/extreme In Kansai and probably other regions too.

#20 Jimmy Redman

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 04:27 AM

The women's division an be a real success, but it remains the case that the only way feminism will ever get over in the world of wrestling is as a heel act, especially with the current asshole crowds.

 

NXT pretty much kills that theory Parv. Feminism is one of the most over babyfaces on that show.

 

Not to mention that there were "WOMENS WRESTLING" chants at Mania and any time they push the Divas Revolution stuff on the main roster it gets cheered.

 

I don't see this.






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